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Brandon Burroughs: Real-Life Rocket Scientist!

In this episode of The Curious Cosmos, join Derrick Pitts for an interview with real-life aerospace engineer Brandon Burroughs! Get the inside scoop on the building of the Space Launch System, learn how the rocket industry works, and discover what it’s like to research, design, and build the tech that will bring humans deeper into space than ever before.

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Transcript
Derrick Pitts:

Hi, I'm Derrick Pitts, and this is the Curious Cosmos.

Derrick Pitts:

Today, I'm really excited because my guest is a real life rocket scientist.

Derrick Pitts:

That's right, the classic smart person job we all like to use in conversation.

Derrick Pitts:

But what does that job actually entail?

Derrick Pitts:

He'll give us a view into the secret life of a rocket engineer.

Derrick Pitts:

The inside baseball look, so to speak, at what the experience of

Derrick Pitts:

building a rocket is actually like.

Derrick Pitts:

Brandon Burroughs is originally from Birmingham, Alabama.

Derrick Pitts:

He studied engineering at Tuskegee University and was an

Derrick Pitts:

engineering co-op for GE Aviation.

Derrick Pitts:

From there he went to work for Boeing as a Space Launch Systems

Derrick Pitts:

Loads and Dynamics Analyst.

Derrick Pitts:

He's the recipient of NASA's Space Flight Awareness Trailblazer Award

Derrick Pitts:

in 2020, and his master's degree is from Florida Institute of Technology.

Derrick Pitts:

Brandon, thanks for joining us today.

Derrick Pitts:

Glad to have you with us.

Brandon Burroughs:

Uh, thanks for having me!

Derrick Pitts:

If you'll be kind enough to tell us, what is it

Derrick Pitts:

you're doing these days for Boeing?

Brandon Burroughs:

Yeah, okay, cool.

Brandon Burroughs:

No problem.

Brandon Burroughs:

So Boeing, been for about five years.

Brandon Burroughs:

I was a systems engineer on the Space Launch System program that recently

Brandon Burroughs:

launched here, which is a huge, huge deal.

Derrick Pitts:

Space Launch System, or SLS, read, newest, biggest, most

Derrick Pitts:

powerful rocket NASA's ever built.

Derrick Pitts:

Why is it such a huge deal?

Derrick Pitts:

Well, its purpose is to carry us back to the moon,

Derrick Pitts:

our first step to venture further out into the solar system.

Brandon Burroughs:

We sent a vehicle to orbit around the moon, and a human

Brandon Burroughs:

rated vehicle at that, to go further out into space than we've ever gone before.

Brandon Burroughs:

So that was a pretty big accomplishment for me to be a part

Brandon Burroughs:

of that program for five years.

Brandon Burroughs:

And on that program I worked from sketch pad to launch pad.

Brandon Burroughs:

I did stress analyst work as an intern.

Brandon Burroughs:

I did manufacturing engineering work on the vehicle.

Brandon Burroughs:

I helped with testing the vehicle.

Brandon Burroughs:

My last engineering role was working night shift as the final integration

Brandon Burroughs:

Boeing support for the vehicle.

Brandon Burroughs:

So working in the VAB, 9 p.m.

Brandon Burroughs:

to like 6 a.m.

Brandon Burroughs:

almost every day as the only Boeing engineering support.

Brandon Burroughs:

So that was pretty fun.

Brandon Burroughs:

But yeah, we got the things stacked and ready to go and integrated.

Brandon Burroughs:

And a little while after that, I was actually asked to move

Brandon Burroughs:

over to business development.

Brandon Burroughs:

They thought that since I'm an engineer that they feel it's pretty

Brandon Burroughs:

personable and relatable and has a lot of big dreams, very big picture.

Brandon Burroughs:

They recognized that and they said, "Hey, let's give you a go at working

Brandon Burroughs:

on the business side of things.

Brandon Burroughs:

So let's go from you building rockets to selling rockets."

Derrick Pitts:

Haha.

Brandon Burroughs:

Yeah, so I've been in business development

Brandon Burroughs:

for about a year and a half now.

Brandon Burroughs:

And on that team, we work on a lot of advanced concepts for our space systems.

Brandon Burroughs:

A lot of things I primarily look at are a lot of our space propulsion systems.

Derrick Pitts:

In space propulsion systems, meaning like, how do

Derrick Pitts:

we get around between planets?

Brandon Burroughs:

How can Boeing align itself or set itself up for success

Brandon Burroughs:

when it comes to these different deep space missions that are coming up?

Brandon Burroughs:

You know, what kind of technologies do we need to invest in?

Brandon Burroughs:

What kind of partnerships do we need to make that possible?

Brandon Burroughs:

So I'm really on the front line and that's what I do now.

Brandon Burroughs:

It's a little bit different from engineering, a lot more big

Brandon Burroughs:

picture, but I'm enjoying it.

Brandon Burroughs:

I think without that engineering foundation, I don't think I'd

Brandon Burroughs:

be effective in this role.

Brandon Burroughs:

It's still a book that's being written, but I'm enjoying every chapter of it.

Derrick Pitts:

That sounds very exciting, going from building to selling, but

Derrick Pitts:

let's go back so our audience can have a little bit of a better understanding.

Derrick Pitts:

So what does vehicle integration mean?

Derrick Pitts:

And you mentioned something called the VAB.

Derrick Pitts:

What's the VAB?

Brandon Burroughs:

So, the VAB is a very large building where we, basically it

Brandon Burroughs:

was constructed back in the early 60s.

Brandon Burroughs:

America constructed it for the Apollo program to do its

Brandon Burroughs:

integration of the rocket that took us to moon the first time.

Brandon Burroughs:

Well, that building still exists, and we still use it for the

Brandon Burroughs:

integration of very large vehicles.

Brandon Burroughs:

An integration just basically means you have all these components

Brandon Burroughs:

that make up a rocket, and they come from all over the country.

Brandon Burroughs:

You transport them down here to Florida at the Vehicle Assembly

Brandon Burroughs:

Building and you integrate them.

Brandon Burroughs:

You put them together, you make sure that each component is talking

Brandon Burroughs:

to each other in a way that will lead to a successful mission.

Brandon Burroughs:

So you're doing some testing there.

Brandon Burroughs:

You're making sure that each bolt fits, wire harness is wired.

Brandon Burroughs:

And again, it's all about mission success, right?

Brandon Burroughs:

So you do all that in a closed environment because you can't integrate outside.

Brandon Burroughs:

It's, I guess it's possible, but it's not ideal.

Brandon Burroughs:

And to make for more opportunities that things like foreign object

Brandon Burroughs:

debris, and to the, to the vehicle.

Brandon Burroughs:

And that is a no go!

Brandon Burroughs:

Don't want any - no contamination!

Brandon Burroughs:

So yeah, the vehicle assembly building allows for you to do that

Brandon Burroughs:

integration in a closed environment.

Brandon Burroughs:

A great example actually is the space launch system had some issues where

Brandon Burroughs:

a hurricane threatened the vehicle, and it's one of those things where

Brandon Burroughs:

you can either stay out there or you can go to shelter in the VAB.

Brandon Burroughs:

And the VAB can provide that shelter from something like a hurricane if you're

Brandon Burroughs:

waiting on the launch pad for a launch.

Brandon Burroughs:

So again, it just gives you that shelter that you need to integrate

Brandon Burroughs:

and build that vehicle before you take it to the launch pad and then

Brandon Burroughs:

light it up and send it to space.

Derrick Pitts:

Wait, is this the super tall building that people often see in

Derrick Pitts:

some of the videos of rocket launches from Kennedy or from Cape Canaveral?

Derrick Pitts:

It's a super tall building and they, you actually build the rockets

Derrick Pitts:

vertically right in the building.

Brandon Burroughs:

Yeah, just like that.

Brandon Burroughs:

It's huge.

Brandon Burroughs:

Actually, you know, one of the more iconic things on it is the American flag, and

Brandon Burroughs:

that American flag is absolutely huge.

Brandon Burroughs:

If you look at it, it takes up like a decent amount of building, but it's

Brandon Burroughs:

one metric that you can use to kind of get an idea of how big just the

Brandon Burroughs:

flag is on the side of the building.

Brandon Burroughs:

The blue portion where the stars are, that is the size of

Brandon Burroughs:

like a regulation NBA court.

Brandon Burroughs:

And the stripes themselves are wide enough to drive a charter bus down.

Brandon Burroughs:

So if it was on the ground, you could drive a bus, it's like the size of a lane.

Derrick Pitts:

That is huge.

Brandon Burroughs:

So yeah, so pretty big.

Brandon Burroughs:

And that's just the flag.

Brandon Burroughs:

That's not even talking about the building itself.

Brandon Burroughs:

And the SLS itself is like 322 feet.

Derrick Pitts:

And for reference, 322 feet is slightly larger

Derrick Pitts:

than the Statue of Liberty.

Brandon Burroughs:

And that sits on top of a mobile launcher, so it's, again,

Brandon Burroughs:

you're making really big, big things inside of this even bigger building.

Derrick Pitts:

Amazing.

Derrick Pitts:

Absolutely amazing.

Derrick Pitts:

So, when you're integrating, or, you know, putting the rocket together,

Derrick Pitts:

doing all this assembly, does it come with a set of directions?

Derrick Pitts:

I mean, you know, just jokingly, I was just saying to the producer here, I wonder

Derrick Pitts:

if it comes with a set of directions that looks like the IKEA stuff, you know,

Derrick Pitts:

when you're trying to assemble things.

Derrick Pitts:

I'm sure it's incredibly detailed, but...

Derrick Pitts:

How do you work that out?

Derrick Pitts:

Do you have people that you work with from the manufacturer of these things

Derrick Pitts:

that help you to assemble this stuff?

Brandon Burroughs:

Yeah, that's a great question.

Brandon Burroughs:

Like, a really good question, because...

Brandon Burroughs:

I don't think I've ever had anybody ask me that, but it

Brandon Burroughs:

comes with a set of instructions.

Brandon Burroughs:

But I want to keep one thing in mind.

Brandon Burroughs:

So for SLS, it was the first SLS that was ever built.

Brandon Burroughs:

Therefore, yes, instructions existed, but it was our first

Brandon Burroughs:

time using those instructions.

Brandon Burroughs:

We have a baseline set of installation drawings that allow you to say,

Brandon Burroughs:

"Hey, this bolt needs to go here.

Brandon Burroughs:

This washer needs to go here," right?

Brandon Burroughs:

But you also have a group of engineers that sit down and write

Brandon Burroughs:

out the installation plan for the technicians that actually do that work.

Brandon Burroughs:

So you have the installation drawing.

Brandon Burroughs:

That's just a bunch of dimensions, and just saying "this needs to go there."

Brandon Burroughs:

Well, what happens in between there is someone has to do that.

Brandon Burroughs:

What kind of tools are needed?

Derrick Pitts:

Yeah.

Brandon Burroughs:

All those things would be called out by an engineer who

Brandon Burroughs:

sits down and looks at those drawings, and translates them into instructions.

Brandon Burroughs:

And when we get done installing it, we come back and get feedback from

Brandon Burroughs:

the technician, from the engineers.

Brandon Burroughs:

How did that go?

Brandon Burroughs:

And we make red lines for those instructions so the next time that we

Brandon Burroughs:

build an SLS, you can say "Hey, make sure you do X, Y, and Z because it's a

Brandon Burroughs:

little bit better than ABC," you know?

Brandon Burroughs:

So yeah, there, there are set of instructions the first time

Brandon Burroughs:

we had to build them, but, uh, they get better and better each

Brandon Burroughs:

iteration of the vehicle for sure.

Derrick Pitts:

And do you just use like regular tools or you have

Derrick Pitts:

specialized tools to do this work?

Brandon Burroughs:

Great question.

Brandon Burroughs:

So most of the tools are kind of normal.

Brandon Burroughs:

The only thing is, a lot of them are big.

Brandon Burroughs:

So, you may have a socket wrench, right?

Brandon Burroughs:

But, you're not used to seeing socket wrenches this big, you know?

Brandon Burroughs:

Like, a lot of the things are just bigger because what you're working on is bigger.

Brandon Burroughs:

So, actually, Boeing, we have a friction stir welder, and it's like

Brandon Burroughs:

one of the largest in the world.

Derrick Pitts:

Friction stir welding is a way to join metals.

Derrick Pitts:

It's actually quite a simple process.

Derrick Pitts:

Imagine spinning a metal rod so fast that its tip glows when it's pressed

Derrick Pitts:

against a joint between two metal plates.

Derrick Pitts:

The heat of the spin, caused by friction, causes the edges

Derrick Pitts:

of the plates to melt together.

Derrick Pitts:

Once it's done, the metal pieces are joined, and the joint itself is smooth.

Derrick Pitts:

Part of the reason why this method might be used is because you

Derrick Pitts:

may not want to completely melt the metals all the way through.

Derrick Pitts:

Or, you might want to make one long continuous joint without sparks or flame.

Brandon Burroughs:

Yeah, you can find friction stir welding,

Brandon Burroughs:

but to build something this big, you don't really have them.

Brandon Burroughs:

So again, you have to build even bigger tools to work on these vehicles.

Derrick Pitts:

Yeah, okay.

Derrick Pitts:

And the other thing I think I grasp in this is that, since it's such a big

Derrick Pitts:

machine that we're talking about, there are hundreds of thousands of components

Derrick Pitts:

that have to be assembled to very, very high specifications to make sure that

Derrick Pitts:

everything is going to work exactly right.

Derrick Pitts:

And was analysis of that, or was that part of your job when you

Derrick Pitts:

were doing this kind of work?

Brandon Burroughs:

Yeah, so tolerance is huge.

Brandon Burroughs:

When you're installing whatever, how big, small it is, in the engineering

Brandon Burroughs:

drawing, it'll say you have a tolerance to move maybe, you know, 15,000th of

Brandon Burroughs:

an inch to the right or to the left.

Brandon Burroughs:

If you're outside of that, then we're gonna have to start all over.

Derrick Pitts:

Wow.

Derrick Pitts:

So, how did you get into this job?

Derrick Pitts:

I mean, when you were a kid, were you thinking that this is the direction

Derrick Pitts:

you wanted to go, engineering?

Derrick Pitts:

And for you, is this about the engineering?

Derrick Pitts:

Or is it about space travel and the work that you're doing is

Derrick Pitts:

facilitating the space travel?

Derrick Pitts:

Which one is it for you?

Brandon Burroughs:

I tell people this all the time.

Brandon Burroughs:

I am an engineer by trade, but number one, I'm a space advocate.

Brandon Burroughs:

That's what I've been since I was a kid, before I even knew if I

Brandon Burroughs:

really wanted to be an engineer.

Brandon Burroughs:

I was an advocate for space and wanted to advocate for us going

Brandon Burroughs:

deeper and deeper into space.

Brandon Burroughs:

So as a kid, I wanted to save the world like a lot of people, and the best

Brandon Burroughs:

solution I could come up with was to take everyone that is on the planet

Brandon Burroughs:

and give them opportunity to look at the planet It's most natural state.

Brandon Burroughs:

Without all the borders and the things that we see on maps, we're all from

Brandon Burroughs:

the same place and it gives you that perspective that at the end of the

Brandon Burroughs:

day, we just need to work together.

Brandon Burroughs:

So I figured going to space is what's gonna give us that kind of top down

Brandon Burroughs:

look at hey We're all the same.

Brandon Burroughs:

That was kind of what got me in

Derrick Pitts:

All the best to you and your attempt to try

Derrick Pitts:

to unify the world this way.

Derrick Pitts:

I'm all for that.

Derrick Pitts:

That's great.

Derrick Pitts:

So now, when you and your colleagues are actually working

Derrick Pitts:

on doing this kind of integration, what is it that you think about?

Derrick Pitts:

I mean, are you talking about the work that's right there?

Derrick Pitts:

Or are you talking about the, the basketball game from last night?

Derrick Pitts:

Or, it's not a question about, are you focused on what you're doing, but

Derrick Pitts:

it's just like, what's a day like for people who work on big things like this?

Brandon Burroughs:

Yeah, I think, you know, it was very similar to what I was

Brandon Burroughs:

imagining most people's day is like when it comes to interacting with co-workers.

Brandon Burroughs:

We talk about whatever show is nice that we enjoy.

Brandon Burroughs:

Now, I will say, we are pretty space centric when it comes to

Brandon Burroughs:

a lot of the things we watch.

Brandon Burroughs:

So that kind of connects there.

Brandon Burroughs:

So like, my favorite show is The Expanse, and you can't take two steps

Brandon Burroughs:

in the office without finding someone who also loves The Expanse and we

Brandon Burroughs:

can sit down and have a conversation.

Brandon Burroughs:

So I think a lot of our stuff is space centric, but at the end of the

Brandon Burroughs:

day, we do have things that drive us.

Brandon Burroughs:

Like for me, outside of work, I'm big into music.

Brandon Burroughs:

Like music is everything to me.

Brandon Burroughs:

I play drum set, and I like to produce hip hop beats and stuff like that.

Brandon Burroughs:

You know, just play around, those things.

Brandon Burroughs:

And not for money or anything, but just for the enjoyment of making music.

Brandon Burroughs:

So I definitely have colleagues that are also the same way when it

Brandon Burroughs:

comes to music and things like that.

Brandon Burroughs:

I think most of us, even though space is a part of our day to day life with

Brandon Burroughs:

our profession, we have these other hobbies that we take just as serious

Brandon Burroughs:

because it means just as much to us.

Derrick Pitts:

So, because there are so many people around you, Brandon,

Derrick Pitts:

that you work with that are into space, does it feel pretty normal to you

Derrick Pitts:

that this is just a job we all have?

Derrick Pitts:

We're just doing this thing and, and this is what we do, as opposed to

Derrick Pitts:

thinking about it as something that is really incredibly special that you do?

Brandon Burroughs:

I definitely do think that we've become...

Brandon Burroughs:

desensitized, because you again, you see it every day.

Brandon Burroughs:

You see these awesome vehicles being integrated and you talk about these

Brandon Burroughs:

concepts that are super far out.

Brandon Burroughs:

Some of these things may not happen for 20, 30 years, but they're

Brandon Burroughs:

just very cool, awesome concepts.

Brandon Burroughs:

And I think that's why I do some of the things I do when it comes to like,

Brandon Burroughs:

giving tours around the space center and going to elementary schools, middle

Brandon Burroughs:

schools, high schools and talking about what I do, because it does bring

Brandon Burroughs:

you back kind of in a sobering way.

Brandon Burroughs:

Like "Hey, what I do is pretty important."

Brandon Burroughs:

There's also, a lot of people think it's really cool.

Brandon Burroughs:

And I should definitely take pride in what I do and make sure I can

Brandon Burroughs:

do it the best that I can do it.

Brandon Burroughs:

Because again, sometimes when you're just in your echo chamber of being at work with

Brandon Burroughs:

everybody else who's doing it, you forget about the significance that comes with it.

Brandon Burroughs:

So, yeah, you're right.

Brandon Burroughs:

We definitely kind of do get used to a lot of the things we do.

Derrick Pitts:

What's it feel like, Brandon, when they hit the big red

Derrick Pitts:

button and the, uh, and the engines fire?

Brandon Burroughs:

Oh man, it's...

Brandon Burroughs:

I think I can speak for most people that it's one of the

Brandon Burroughs:

proudest moments in anybody's life.

Brandon Burroughs:

For me, I spent five years of my life straight out of college.

Brandon Burroughs:

I graduated from Tuskegee University and two weeks later I was on the program.

Derrick Pitts:

Wow.

Brandon Burroughs:

Yeah, so I didn't take any break or anything.

Brandon Burroughs:

I wanted to get straight to it.

Brandon Burroughs:

And it's one of those things where I kind of kept that same

Brandon Burroughs:

energy for those five years.

Brandon Burroughs:

So when I saw the launch, it was, I really can't describe how it feels, but

Brandon Burroughs:

I think the people is what I thought about a lot more than the actual

Brandon Burroughs:

hardware itself, because I think for me, at least the, uh, more lasting

Brandon Burroughs:

feeling I have from being on the program is, man, I got to work super smart,

Brandon Burroughs:

super cool people.

Brandon Burroughs:

So there's a lot of camaraderie there, and I got to watch it with a

Brandon Burroughs:

lot of people that I did work with.

Brandon Burroughs:

So it was, it was great to be in the presence of everybody else who I assume

Brandon Burroughs:

or hope felt the same way about me.

Brandon Burroughs:

They enjoyed working with me, and that, that was an awesome experience.

Derrick Pitts:

Yeah, I'm sure they did have that feeling.

Derrick Pitts:

So you watched the Rocket going.

Derrick Pitts:

Are you interested in going?

Brandon Burroughs:

To be honest, yeah.

Brandon Burroughs:

I do plan on applying for astronaut candidacy the next opportunity I get.

Brandon Burroughs:

I couldn't do it the first time, I didn't have my Masters.

Brandon Burroughs:

But yeah, it's definitely something that's always interesting to me.

Brandon Burroughs:

I'm not mission centric, I just want to go to space, you know?

Brandon Burroughs:

So it's not like one of those things where, "oh, if I'm not on the first

Brandon Burroughs:

Mars mission, I don't want to go!"

Brandon Burroughs:

Like, no man, all of space is super cool to me.

Brandon Burroughs:

If I had an opportunity, I would love to play whatever role to help,

Brandon Burroughs:

again, get us further into space, whatever that would look like.

Brandon Burroughs:

Even if it didn't involve me going into space, and not just supporting the

Brandon Burroughs:

programs, I just want to be attached to us becoming a space faring civilization.

Derrick Pitts:

Is there anything else about being out in space?

Derrick Pitts:

I mean, do you, are you thinking about what it would feel like to be in space?

Derrick Pitts:

Are you thinking about the exploration part of it?

Derrick Pitts:

Or just, pressing the envelope to get humans further out there?

Brandon Burroughs:

I think it's important to challenge yourself as a

Brandon Burroughs:

species to further evolve and to find out more things about yourself and

Brandon Burroughs:

maybe better ways of doing things.

Brandon Burroughs:

Just because we're here on this earth and we deal with the type of gravity

Brandon Burroughs:

we deal with and all those things, that doesn't mean that that's the

Brandon Burroughs:

best way to do certain things, right?

Brandon Burroughs:

So like for instance, we're pretty aware that building fiber optics is a much

Brandon Burroughs:

better process in space than it is on earth, because of the lack of gravity.

Brandon Burroughs:

Or 3D printing organs and stuff is something that we believe is much

Brandon Burroughs:

easier in space because you don't have gravity to like, make all the cells.

Brandon Burroughs:

mush together.

Brandon Burroughs:

You can now print layers and be more intentional about

Brandon Burroughs:

how you make these things.

Brandon Burroughs:

And these are things that will directly impact us here on the ground.

Brandon Burroughs:

So I just think we'll be hindering ourselves with options if we do

Brandon Burroughs:

not look at the advantages that the space environment does give us.

Derrick Pitts:

Sure.

Derrick Pitts:

And when you say organs, you're talking, like, kidneys and

Derrick Pitts:

livers and things like that.

Derrick Pitts:

Human organs.

Derrick Pitts:

That's pretty advanced.

Derrick Pitts:

So I'm going to go back to one other thing that you were talking about

Derrick Pitts:

before, you and your colleagues working on the integration.

Derrick Pitts:

You talked about one of the weird problems that you might have to solve if you have

Derrick Pitts:

something that's 15 thousandths of an inch out of alignment, the tolerances you have.

Derrick Pitts:

Were there other kinds of weird problems that you would run into, that might affect

Derrick Pitts:

how you go about doing that integration?

Brandon Burroughs:

Yeah.

Brandon Burroughs:

So we have these things called non performances.

Brandon Burroughs:

And that just basically means, we made an engineering drawing, and this is

Brandon Burroughs:

how the entire vehicle should look.

Brandon Burroughs:

It should be exactly to print.

Brandon Burroughs:

The way that we made these instructions, these drawings, is how you should look.

Brandon Burroughs:

Well, you start off with a drawing looking one way, but then by the end of the

Brandon Burroughs:

process for a developmental program, it's going to look pretty different from what

Brandon Burroughs:

you started with, because once you get to the manufacturing portion and you're now

Brandon Burroughs:

actually trying to do the installations and stuff, certain things just don't

Brandon Burroughs:

fit the way we thought, there's certain interferences, we might not be able to

Brandon Burroughs:

get to a spot unless we are levitating, so it's like, okay, we can't install this

Brandon Burroughs:

unless we're literally levitating, we're going to have to try something else.

Brandon Burroughs:

Um, So, that's kind of a broad example of like some of the problems we

Brandon Burroughs:

have, but a lot of them would be just literally, sometimes you just can't

Brandon Burroughs:

get to certain things the way that we thought that we would, our bodies

Brandon Burroughs:

don't contort in such a way that we can actually do some of these things.

Brandon Burroughs:

So, um, I think that was one of the bigger things.

Brandon Burroughs:

It's like finding out like, "Oh, this actually may not be possible."

Brandon Burroughs:

And you go back to the drawing board and you come up with another idea and

Brandon Burroughs:

you change the drawing accordingly, or change the tooling accordingly, or

Brandon Burroughs:

sometimes change the person accordingly.

Derrick Pitts:

Did these things typically happen at three o'clock in the morning

Derrick Pitts:

when you ran into that particular problem?

Brandon Burroughs:

Man, I can't count how many times they just happen at what

Brandon Burroughs:

seems to be the most unopportunate time.

Brandon Burroughs:

Right at the end of a shift and people want to go home, but it's

Brandon Burroughs:

like, hey, we're already working this and let's go ahead and finish up.

Brandon Burroughs:

And we push through it.

Brandon Burroughs:

Those are the things people don't see is those nights where you want to go home.

Brandon Burroughs:

If you want to go back to your family, if you want to go back to doing

Brandon Burroughs:

whatever you want to do, but you make those sacrifices, the engineers, the

Brandon Burroughs:

technicians, the, you know, whoever, to make this happen and stay on schedule

Brandon Burroughs:

so that the country can be in a better place from a space varying situation.

Brandon Burroughs:

So, yeah, it was always at an inopportune time.

Brandon Burroughs:

. Derrick Pitts: So let me ask you a little bit about the time not spent in the VAB.

Brandon Burroughs:

You said that you play drums and you make hip hop beats.

Brandon Burroughs:

Are you part of a band?

Brandon Burroughs:

So actually, I'm not properly like a part of a group.

Brandon Burroughs:

I do have a group of friends who do music and they travel and I go to

Brandon Burroughs:

their shows and I get feedback on that.

Brandon Burroughs:

I go to the studios and hang out with them and say, "Hey, I like this.

Brandon Burroughs:

I don't like this as much" and stuff like that, but I do hope to get more free time

Brandon Burroughs:

now that the project is launched and I'm kind of settling into my new job where

Brandon Burroughs:

I can participate a little bit more by like, you know, providing beats and maybe

Brandon Burroughs:

even doing live performances with them.

Brandon Burroughs:

So I put a lot of things on hold my life during that time period

Brandon Burroughs:

that we were doing the integration, but I think it was worth it.

Brandon Burroughs:

And I think I wasn't the only one for sure, but music is one of the things

Brandon Burroughs:

I definitely want to bring back.

Brandon Burroughs:

Cause I was in a band in middle school, high school, college, all those things.

Brandon Burroughs:

You know, I want to get back into it.

Brandon Burroughs:

I miss the way it feels.

Brandon Burroughs:

I miss performing.

Brandon Burroughs:

So it's an ongoing thing.

Brandon Burroughs:

I'll let you know.

Brandon Burroughs:

And then also I was getting my masters and working at the same time.

Brandon Burroughs:

So I just didn't have time for music at the time, you know?

Derrick Pitts:

Yeah.

Derrick Pitts:

So now you're in the business of selling rockets.

Brandon Burroughs:

Mm hmm.

Derrick Pitts:

Do you have like a case that you walk around with that

Derrick Pitts:

has, you know, the cut sheets and the colored slicks of what you're

Derrick Pitts:

selling that you take to a potential buyer and lay out on the table and

Derrick Pitts:

say, "Hey, you need one of these!"

Brandon Burroughs:

Yeah, that's exactly what we do.

Brandon Burroughs:

Walk around with signs outside of, you know, the building and

Brandon Burroughs:

see if people would just want to buy a rocket.

Brandon Burroughs:

No, um, I think...

Brandon Burroughs:

Yeah, I think for me, what I love about this job is it's very open

Brandon Burroughs:

ended because you're on the cutting edge of helping the company make

Brandon Burroughs:

decisions on where they should, you know, invest, or what opportunities

Brandon Burroughs:

they should pursue and stuff.

Brandon Burroughs:

So a lot of it is very like flexible.

Brandon Burroughs:

Don't get wrong.

Brandon Burroughs:

We're, intentful in what we do, but it's not like an engineering where

Brandon Burroughs:

someone's just telling me to install this part, and I just install it.

Brandon Burroughs:

I have to help create the message of what we're doing and why we're doing it.

Brandon Burroughs:

So one of the things I've been doing lately - I can't talk

Brandon Burroughs:

in detail about it, but...

Derrick Pitts:

Oh, come on.

Derrick Pitts:

It's just us!

Brandon Burroughs:

Just me and you, Derek, right?

Brandon Burroughs:

It's not like this is going out to the world!

Brandon Burroughs:

Yeah, but, um, for me, when I first started my job, they gave

Brandon Burroughs:

me a area that they wanted me to look at an area of technology.

Brandon Burroughs:

And what I did was, I did assessment on where we are as a company and where our

Brandon Burroughs:

competition may be with this technology, and how we should move forward.

Brandon Burroughs:

That's a big part of your job is assessing not only internally where you

Brandon Burroughs:

are, but what is the competition doing?

Brandon Burroughs:

How can we better help our customers like NASA or the DOD

Brandon Burroughs:

who might want to be a customer?

Derrick Pitts:

Most people think that NASA builds all of its own rockets.

Derrick Pitts:

When in fact, NASA really is just a big contractor.

Derrick Pitts:

Someone that hires others to build what it needs.

Derrick Pitts:

That includes rockets, space capsules, space suits, anything that has to

Derrick Pitts:

do with space, NASA finds someone who can build it and build it well.

Derrick Pitts:

But let's just keep in mind that contracts are always awarded to the lowest bidder.

Derrick Pitts:

The company that says they can build it for the least amount of money and

Derrick Pitts:

typically in the least amount of time.

Brandon Burroughs:

Once you do those assessments, you have to

Brandon Burroughs:

sit back and say, "Hmm, what will maybe be the biggest discriminator

Brandon Burroughs:

for us in that technology area?"

Brandon Burroughs:

Right?

Brandon Burroughs:

And so what I did was I identified some gaps and I said, "Hey, I

Brandon Burroughs:

think we fill in those gaps.

Brandon Burroughs:

We're good to go."

Brandon Burroughs:

You have to say "Now, what's the best way of making this technology?"

Brandon Burroughs:

Boeing doing it by themselves internally and this and this, or maybe are

Brandon Burroughs:

there some partners out there that we can partner with that may have

Brandon Burroughs:

an expertise in something that will complement what we have expertise in.

Brandon Burroughs:

Maybe we work with NASA and they might have funding for X, Y, and Z

Brandon Burroughs:

technology development that they want.

Brandon Burroughs:

So that's kind of where I'm at now.

Brandon Burroughs:

And once I build those partnerships, identify different resources we can use,

Brandon Burroughs:

then execute, work on that technology.

Brandon Burroughs:

This may take years.

Derrick Pitts:

Yeah.

Brandon Burroughs:

I mean, you know how this goes.

Brandon Burroughs:

You could identify a certain type of tech, it could take 10 years to develop.

Brandon Burroughs:

But once you develop it, you have a discriminator.

Brandon Burroughs:

And now you're able to then get out in front of the building and say, "We have

Brandon Burroughs:

now built this, and who wants to buy one?"

Brandon Burroughs:

Anyone can buy one!"

Brandon Burroughs:

That's not what you do.

Brandon Burroughs:

But you get what I'm saying.

Brandon Burroughs:

I think there's a lot of working backwards in this job as well.

Derrick Pitts:

So it's very futuristic.

Derrick Pitts:

I mean, it's really, like you say, it's open ended, cutting edge.

Derrick Pitts:

You're right out there.

Derrick Pitts:

So, if you were writing a science fiction story or creating a space science

Derrick Pitts:

fiction story yourself now about what you think the future of space travel

Derrick Pitts:

would be like, what do you think would be some of the main themes or concepts

Derrick Pitts:

in that, that could turn out to become real in the future, or that you would

Derrick Pitts:

want to see become real in the future?

Brandon Burroughs:

Man, that's a good question.

Brandon Burroughs:

I think one of the big things I would like to talk about is the dynamic

Brandon Burroughs:

between human space exploration versus, you know, your more

Brandon Burroughs:

autonomous, robotic space exploration.

Derrick Pitts:

Autonomous robotic?

Derrick Pitts:

Sounds like future space to me.

Derrick Pitts:

But let's just say independent, smart rovers instead.

Derrick Pitts:

If the rover had days worth of assignments preloaded, the rover

Derrick Pitts:

could operate independently and continuously without having to wait

Derrick Pitts:

for instructions to come from Earth.

Brandon Burroughs:

I think we get wrapped around the axle sometimes with what

Brandon Burroughs:

we want the universe to look like from a human space exploration standpoint.

Brandon Burroughs:

Where you know, we're going like, "Oh man, we're going to be amongst the

Brandon Burroughs:

stars and all these different places.

Brandon Burroughs:

And it's not going to take us that long," and things like that.

Brandon Burroughs:

I think if I had a sci-fi show, it would just show a little bit

Brandon Burroughs:

more realistic vibe of that.

Brandon Burroughs:

Honestly, in the near future, I don't see us going too much further,

Brandon Burroughs:

human wise, than the solar system.

Brandon Burroughs:

The type of propulsion we have right now to get to some

Brandon Burroughs:

of these places and stuff...

Brandon Burroughs:

It's just one of those things where it may not be ideal for humans to go that far.

Brandon Burroughs:

Now, with the right technology advancements, maybe if we could hibernate

Brandon Burroughs:

or sleep during some of these journeys - or, you have the concept of generational

Brandon Burroughs:

shifts, where generations are aware that, hey, We won't see the promised

Brandon Burroughs:

land wherever that is, but maybe five generations from now, we'll see it.

Brandon Burroughs:

I would talk about those type of things when it comes to the vastness of space.

Brandon Burroughs:

It's just not a place you - that we know of right now, where you can just go

Brandon Burroughs:

from point to point and just hop around.

Brandon Burroughs:

So I think I would probably make a sci-fi that is revolved around, to

Brandon Burroughs:

me, more realistic and reasonable modes of transportation around the

Brandon Burroughs:

solar system and even the galaxy.

Derrick Pitts:

Brandon, I gotta tell you, that's, that's not what I was

Derrick Pitts:

hoping to hear, I was really depending on you and your colleagues to come up

Derrick Pitts:

with either some kind of a Tesseract shift, or, you know, some kind of a Warp

Derrick Pitts:

Drive or something, cause I'm trying to get to the next galaxy before too long!

Brandon Burroughs:

Yeah, and to be honest, I hope we get there, but I'm just as

Brandon Burroughs:

excited about the idea of colonizing the solar system, that is super cool to me.

Brandon Burroughs:

The idea of like, you know, one day having an outpost at Pluto, sharing pluto's moon

Brandon Burroughs:

is so close, and maybe there might be like this giant mechanical like bridge

Brandon Burroughs:

to one another and stuff like that.

Brandon Burroughs:

Just these really cool concepts.

Brandon Burroughs:

I could see stuff like that happening and it sounds like a

Brandon Burroughs:

pretty cool solar system to me!

Brandon Burroughs:

But yeah, there's so many things you have to take into consideration

Brandon Burroughs:

when you start traveling that far.

Brandon Burroughs:

One of the technologies we don't talk about a lot, I think,

Brandon Burroughs:

is communication technology.

Brandon Burroughs:

Comms is huge.

Derrick Pitts:

True.

Brandon Burroughs:

The speed of light, as we know right now, is

Brandon Burroughs:

kind of the, uh, speed limit.

Brandon Burroughs:

The same thing with comms.

Brandon Burroughs:

Even if you can get your comms traveling at the speed of light, from here to

Brandon Burroughs:

Pluto, still it takes weeks to get just one message back and forth.

Brandon Burroughs:

I think there's a lot of things there that people don't take into consideration, like

Brandon Burroughs:

"oh, we'll always be able to talk to each other instantly across the solar system."

Brandon Burroughs:

We don't really know a method of doing that right now.

Derrick Pitts:

Elon Musk has this idea of colonizing Mars in the not too distant

Derrick Pitts:

future, using the starship that he's building to take, you know, lots of

Derrick Pitts:

payload and lots of people out there.

Derrick Pitts:

Are you envisioning that?

Derrick Pitts:

That we're going to have domed cities on Mars at some time

Derrick Pitts:

in the not too distant future?

Derrick Pitts:

And is this the kind of future that we ought to be promoting

Derrick Pitts:

of, you know, domed cities on the Moon and domed cities on Mars?

Brandon Burroughs:

Yeah, I think what SpaceX is doing is definitely like, you

Brandon Burroughs:

know, in a lot of ways revolutionary.

Brandon Burroughs:

They're trying things that some other places might not be willing

Brandon Burroughs:

to try, so there's a place for that.

Brandon Burroughs:

As far as the dome cities and things like that on Mars, I don't see a lot

Brandon Burroughs:

of that being what it looks like.

Brandon Burroughs:

So I think sometimes, you know, a lot of us in the space industry, we

Brandon Burroughs:

still have a dream that might not be totally accurate what it'll look like.

Brandon Burroughs:

For instance, like you have these big glass dome cities.

Brandon Burroughs:

How does that work with radiation and things like that?

Brandon Burroughs:

Can we really even possibly have those type of buildings?

Brandon Burroughs:

Or do we have to live subterranean, you know, live in lava tubes?

Brandon Burroughs:

Or what do we actually have to do?

Brandon Burroughs:

And I think we maybe should work on giving them a little bit

Brandon Burroughs:

more accurate depiction of that.

Brandon Burroughs:

But I think in the meantime, because no one really knows,

Brandon Burroughs:

there's a lot of work to be done.

Brandon Burroughs:

But I tend to think it won't look how a lot of people are depicting.

Brandon Burroughs:

Like, it's gonna be rough.

Brandon Burroughs:

It's gonna be...

Brandon Burroughs:

Very challenging.

Brandon Burroughs:

I mean, we got to get there first!

Brandon Burroughs:

We haven't even talked about the trip, right?

Derrick Pitts:

Right, we haven't!

Derrick Pitts:

Sure.

Brandon Burroughs:

Before we can even make the domed cities, we have to get there!

Brandon Burroughs:

So I think there's a lot of challenges there.

Brandon Burroughs:

I think me personally.

Brandon Burroughs:

I'm very pro-moon first, I think there's a lot to learn there because at

Brandon Burroughs:

the end of the day - like I said with communication - you can get it back

Brandon Burroughs:

and forth pretty quickly, relatively.

Brandon Burroughs:

Something goes wrong, you can get back to Earth pretty quickly.

Brandon Burroughs:

I don't see why we wouldn't start there.

Brandon Burroughs:

We've kind of done the LEO thing.

Derrick Pitts:

In this case, LEO means Low Earth Orbit.

Derrick Pitts:

And that's up to an altitude of about 1, 200 miles.

Derrick Pitts:

That's where we find International Space Station at about 220 miles up.

Derrick Pitts:

And then there's Hubble Space Telescope.

Derrick Pitts:

That's at about 400 miles up.

Brandon Burroughs:

I think we'll definitely keep moving forward and it's

Brandon Burroughs:

about to get commercialized and stuff.

Brandon Burroughs:

And I think the moon is next.

Brandon Burroughs:

I want to fact check this because I've just recently heard this last

Brandon Burroughs:

week and I haven't looked it up yet.

Brandon Burroughs:

But from my understanding, in total, we spent something like 12 days on the moon.

Derrick Pitts:

That's all.

Brandon Burroughs:

So we got a lot to learn and a lot more staying to do.

Brandon Burroughs:

And that really puts it in perspective of like, man, we, we really have not

Brandon Burroughs:

spent very much time on the surface of the moon, which makes it hard for me

Brandon Burroughs:

to just think we'll just skip over the moon and then spend months on Mars.

Brandon Burroughs:

It's very hard for me to imagine how that would be a good idea.

Derrick Pitts:

I mean, you understand all the propulsion and all this

Derrick Pitts:

sort of stuff, but what do you think of as the biggest impediment

Derrick Pitts:

to just the journey out to Mars?

Brandon Burroughs:

People.

Brandon Burroughs:

Keeping people alive!

Brandon Burroughs:

You know, he's sending cargo there.

Brandon Burroughs:

I think that's more possible.

Brandon Burroughs:

Robots there, yeah.

Brandon Burroughs:

But the people part is really what just makes this very complex

Brandon Burroughs:

from a psychological standpoint, physiological standpoint.

Brandon Burroughs:

We have some understanding of how the body reacts in space, but not as much

Brandon Burroughs:

as I think we need to go to Mars yet.

Brandon Burroughs:

We don't really know how people deal with that trip psychologically, we

Brandon Burroughs:

don't know really what will happen.

Brandon Burroughs:

A lot of us assume, "Oh man, I could do that You can stick me in a tin can for

Brandon Burroughs:

eight months and i'll be just fine."

Brandon Burroughs:

But they've never been in a tent camp for eight months, right?

Brandon Burroughs:

I heard someone speak about this recently about exploring caves and

Brandon Burroughs:

stuff like that, and how that can be very hard for people psychologically,

Brandon Burroughs:

because they've never been enclosed like that before in total darkness.

Brandon Burroughs:

And this could only be a few hours or so, and it just really messes

Brandon Burroughs:

with people psychologically.

Brandon Burroughs:

You might not know it but we're so used to going out into

Brandon Burroughs:

open air and stuff like that.

Brandon Burroughs:

What happens if something breaks down and, not to get too cynical, but if

Brandon Burroughs:

certain things break down, how do you make the ethical decision on, "oh, we now

Brandon Burroughs:

have enough food for just three people instead of four people on this mission."

Brandon Burroughs:

What do you do?

Brandon Burroughs:

What do you do?

Brandon Burroughs:

And people don't want to bring up those situations, but no, anything can

Brandon Burroughs:

happen out there, and you can't get a lot of help once you're on that trip.

Brandon Burroughs:

So we want to make sure that we do it right.

Brandon Burroughs:

Make sure that people are safe before we do that.

Brandon Burroughs:

And I think we may not be there right now, but we will get there,

Brandon Burroughs:

but we got to do our due diligence.

Brandon Burroughs:

That's why the moon is such a great place to start.

Derrick Pitts:

The moon's a great place to start!

Derrick Pitts:

If you were on that trip, is there an aspect that you think would

Derrick Pitts:

be the most challenging for you?

Brandon Burroughs:

To be honest, I think being away from the people I love.

Brandon Burroughs:

Of course you'll build camaraderie amongst your new team and stuff, but...

Brandon Burroughs:

being away from my wife, my friends, my family, that'll be really, really tough.

Brandon Burroughs:

And not even just from a perspective of, it's tough on me, knowing that it's

Brandon Burroughs:

tough on them as well would affect me.

Brandon Burroughs:

Knowing that they may be worrying and stuff like that, I think

Brandon Burroughs:

that would be really hard for me.

Brandon Burroughs:

And on a lighter note, being away from my drum set for that long,

Brandon Burroughs:

man, that would really suck.

Brandon Burroughs:

One of the most calming things, like it calms me down a lot to play my drum set.

Brandon Burroughs:

So, I just don't, I don't see them allowing me to bring my drum set.

Brandon Burroughs:

So yeah, I think that'd be really hard, too.

Brandon Burroughs:

And, uh, the last kind of statement on just how I think I feel in

Brandon Burroughs:

general about the space industry and where we're going right now.

Brandon Burroughs:

If I could let the public know anything, it would be that.

Brandon Burroughs:

It's going to take everybody, literally everybody.

Brandon Burroughs:

It's going to take people understanding, you know, the

Brandon Burroughs:

complexities of space and advocating.

Brandon Burroughs:

It's going to take the legislators understanding those things.

Brandon Burroughs:

It's going to take every space company.

Brandon Burroughs:

Healthy competition is a good thing or whatever, but I don't believe

Brandon Burroughs:

in beating down on other companies and demonizing other companies

Brandon Burroughs:

because I think we're all playing a very important role in this effort.

Brandon Burroughs:

But again, it's not just engineers, it's not just technicians, it's the

Brandon Burroughs:

people who keep our facilities clean.

Brandon Burroughs:

It's all kinds of people that are a part of this that help us get there.

Brandon Burroughs:

So do your part in advocating, whatever that looks like for you.

Brandon Burroughs:

So that'd be what I want everyone to understand and keep in mind.

Derrick Pitts:

That's a great message for people to understand about

Derrick Pitts:

that, is that there are so many opportunities for so many different

Derrick Pitts:

people to support these missions and make them happen, and in doing

Derrick Pitts:

that, to be able to advance humanity.

Derrick Pitts:

Great, Brandon.

Derrick Pitts:

Thanks a lot.

Brandon Burroughs:

Hey, no, thank you for having me.

Brandon Burroughs:

Need anything, let me know.

Derrick Pitts:

Thank you.

Derrick Pitts:

Thank you very much.

Derrick Pitts:

Amazing.

Derrick Pitts:

As I think back on my conversation with Brandon, it's really interesting to

Derrick Pitts:

hear his thoughts on the future of space exploration, his unique perspective

Derrick Pitts:

as someone who has actually worked on the rockets that will carry us back

Derrick Pitts:

to the moon and possibly on to Mars.

Derrick Pitts:

And from someone working on the development of those future technologies

Derrick Pitts:

that will open our opportunities to explore the solar system.

Derrick Pitts:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode and this whole

Derrick Pitts:

season of Curious Cosmos.

Derrick Pitts:

You know, it makes sense that we're curious about the cosmos because

Derrick Pitts:

the universe is a part of us.

Derrick Pitts:

The physics of astronomical observing is that your eyes collect

Derrick Pitts:

photons from celestial objects.

Derrick Pitts:

Those photons strike your retina, a piece of your brain, and

Derrick Pitts:

create an electrical impulse your brain translates into an image.

Derrick Pitts:

Once the photons strike your retina, they become yours forever.

Derrick Pitts:

Through observing, we should never forget that the universe

Derrick Pitts:

is ours to discover and enjoy.

Derrick Pitts:

Make sure you look up and gather some universal photons of your own.

Derrick Pitts:

This podcast is made in partnership with RADIOKISMET, Philadelphia's

Derrick Pitts:

premier podcast production studio.

Derrick Pitts:

This podcast is produced by Amy Carson, the Franklin Institute's Director of

Derrick Pitts:

Digital Editorial is Joy Monetfusco, and Erin Armstrong runs Marketing,

Derrick Pitts:

Communications, and Digital Media.

Derrick Pitts:

Head of Operations is Christopher Plant, our Mix Engineer is Justin

Derrick Pitts:

Berger, and I'm Derrick Pitts, Chief Astronomer and Director of the Fels

Derrick Pitts:

Planetarium at the Franklin Institute, and your host for this podcast.

Derrick Pitts:

Thanks so much for listening.

The Franklin Institute

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