Death. We can’t escape it. In this final episode of our series Angelica and Bey talk with palliative care physician Dr. David Casarett about death, dying, and really everything death-related. Hear from guests throughout the season about how their experience with the science of life shapes their thoughts about death.
Click to learn more about about Dr. David Casarett
Transcript
Hello, and welcome to So Curious!, presented by the Franklin Institute.
Speaker:In this season, Human 2.0, we will be talking to scientists and non-scientists
Speaker:alike about technology and innovation surrounding the human experience.
Speaker:We are your hosts.
Speaker:I'm Angelica Pasquini.
Speaker:And I am The Bul Bey.
Speaker:But you could just call me Bey.
Speaker:On today's episode, we're going to be talking about death with palliative care
Speaker:physician David Casarett about death, dying, and dignity in end-of-life care.
Speaker:As this is the final episode of the
Speaker:season, we want to say thank you so much for listening and learning along with us.
Speaker:This has been an incredible experience, and we're excited to end it by talking
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:death, the biology of death.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:You're also going to hear guests from our previous episodes talk about how their
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:fields specifically relate to the biology of death.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Take a deep breath for this one. Right, yeah?
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:OK. We're talking about death, people.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:To our listeners, I guess, trigger warning.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:But ultimately, honey, it's cominh.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Get used to it. It's here.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Get used to it. Yeah.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:And we're still trying to understand it. Right.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:We don't know all the workings around it.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:And it's significant. Yeah.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:I mean, Madonna said, "life is a mystery.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Everyone must stand alone, right?" That's
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:in "Like a Prayer," you know, the opening line.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:And as everything else she says, I take that really seriously because I love her.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:How do you feel about that?
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:So personally, if I can be vulnerable for
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:a moment, I actually have panic attacks and night terrors around death.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:And I still deal with those episodes, if you will.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:And I understand I'm trying to break it down because I understand that that panic.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:It comes from the concept of things being absolute.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Like, you'll absolutely be gone.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:And I'm always trying to step away from
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:that for a second and understand a little bit more of the science around it.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:And what does it mean to be dead?
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:I know we're made up of stardust, and many other elements of the universe, and it's a
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:transfer of energy, and we can get really spiritual with it and things like that.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:But although it causes me a lot of
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:existential dread and panic, I'm still so curious about the mechanisms behind it.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:And what does it actually mean?
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Because personally, I don't tend to think
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:of my world and how it functions in absolutes.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:And so thinking about death as an absolute death also doesn't fit into my mind.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Also, living forever causes me panic.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:I'm like, I got to figure out death.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:No, I hear you.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:I think that it's been a source of anxiety since the
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:beginning of time, which is why people have created so many different types of
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:reasoning around what it could potentially be.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:And I think that spirituality ultimately soothes a lot of people.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:And I think religions, like, the intention
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:behind a lot of them is to soothe this specific fear.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:But personally, I think when anybody tells me straight up.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:This is what this means.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:100% point blank with no nuance when it comes to life or death.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:I'm interested.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:I'm willing to listen and learn.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:But whenever someone is like, this is what happens after you die.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:I'm like, baby, you do not know.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Nobody does.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:I want peaceful death in my sleep if possible.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Right. It's just really important to get all the
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:things out of the way that you can before you go.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Meaning living every day to the fullest, I guess.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Also Yolo.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:But I do have a gift, which is that when I
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:meet someone, I know their perfect gravestone.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:It does come to my mind.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:I want a business where I curate these, and I know what I want mine to say.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Tell me.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:I want mine to say, "Don't make this about you." [Laughter]
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Wow. Because let me tell you something.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:People throw themselves on the floor.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Your gravestone, oh, my, God. Crying, going crazy.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:You know what? It's about you.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:If anything in this world is about you, it's those square inches.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:And I want it to say, don't make this about you.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Yeah.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Okay. Let's bring in an expert now.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Let's introduce our first guest for this episode.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Dr.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:David Casarett is a professor of medicine at the Duke University School of Medicine,
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:where he also serves as Chief of Palliative Care in Duke Health.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:His research and work focus on improving
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:care for people with life-threatening illnesses.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:He also published three books of
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:nonfiction, including Shocked, which follows his own exploration of
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:resuscitation and reveals how far science has come in this field.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Hello and welcome. Dave.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Can you introduce yourself in your own words?
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:My name is David Casarett.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:I'm a health services researcher and a palliative care physician.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:I'm a professor here at Duke,
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:but have long-term ties to Philadelphia, where I was at the University of
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Pennsylvania in the palliative care program for many years.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:And a lot of my work is focused on trying to design systems of care that better meet
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:the needs of patients and families at the end of life.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:But also, upstream of that, people who are
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:suffering with chronic serious illnesses that may end their lives at some point,
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:but are conditions that people have to live with, day in and day out.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:So how can we make those lives as
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:comfortable and as meaningful and as dignified as we can for whatever time
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:people have left, whether that's a day or a year, sometimes a decade?
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:Let's get to the most simple question of the biggest mystery of all time.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:What does it mean to die?
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:We want to specifically ask about the biology of death and what that looks like.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:The first question about what it means to die or what death means is
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:kind of simple, but the more you unpack it, like a lot of things that cross the
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:lines between physiology and neurology and philosophy, gets increasingly complex.
about the ultimate ending:
Speaker:The definition of death that we rely on in
the United States is:you're kind of dead when your brain is dead.
the United States is:That's the way we determine death.
the United States is:And there are criteria for what brain death includes,
the United States is:and those include the absence of thought, absence of movement, absence of responses
the United States is:to what are some very basic reflexes that should be in place.
the United States is:When those disappear, we say somebody is brain dead, and we say when they're brain
the United States is:dead, they are actually dead, which if you're somebody who's very
the United States is:cognitively thinking-oriented, it makes perfect sense.
the United States is:Of course.
the United States is:How can you be alive if you can't think, speak and interact?
the United States is:But that's not everybody.
the United States is:And certainly some of the challenges we
the United States is:have in talking with families, when you're looking at a loved one
the United States is:whose heart is beating, their kidneys are functioning....
the United States is:But their brain is not, and will never, trying to have that conversation with
the United States is:families and telling families that that person is dead.
the United States is:It really takes a whole lot of credibility and trust in the medical establishment to
the United States is:get that message across, because it's not obvious, nor should it be, honestly.
the United States is:So that's the definition.
the United States is:But it can be very difficult to implement.
the United States is:Thank you for that very clear answer.
the United States is:Open up with a hard hitter.
the United States is:Yeah, for sure.
the United States is:I'll move on to your book. Shocked.
the United States is:It's all about resuscitation and the dynamics of bringing people back to life,
the United States is:a concept people seem really obsessed with.
the United States is:What do you make of the interest in coming back to life after death?
the United States is:Yeah, well, I think the cynical answer,
the United States is:which is most people really don't want to die, but it also, for a lot of people,
the United States is:gets to some of the issues that we were talking about a few minutes ago. What does
the United States is:it actually mean to be dead and what's possible?
the United States is:And I think people are fascinated, often, by somebody coming back from the dead
the United States is:because it gets people thinking (whether they realize it or not), about whether you
the United States is:could bring back somebody who's been dead for a day, or two days, or three days.
the United States is:It's really pretty easy to start letting your mind wander about what the world
the United States is:would be like if the person who's in a hospital bed who's going to die
the United States is:the next day could actually come back and be happy and healthy.
the United States is:It's a totally different world with a little bit of imagination.
the United States is:What do you make of people that welcome
the United States is:death? What do you make of the folks that think death is an integral and important
the United States is:part of life? And are you one of those people?
the United States is:In general, I think the people who are accepting of death, at least in principle
the United States is:...I mean, that's something to aspire to honestly, because I think those are the
the United States is:sorts of people who come to terms with dying much more easily, and I think they
the United States is:make better choices for them. Like they've thought about. do I really want to be in a
the United States is:nursing home? Well, there are some pros and
the United States is:cons, but I've spent some time thinking about it, and I really don't want to.
the United States is:And I think those people make those sorts of decisions about being on a ventilator
the United States is:or getting chemotherapy for advanced cancer, or being a nursing home.
the United States is:They make those decisions better if they've had a chance to think about it,
the United States is:revisit those decisions every once in a while.
the United States is:And as long as you're not obsessive over it, I mean, it's a pretty good way to
the United States is:waste your life by constantly thinking about death.
the United States is:Yeah. But I also think that in the United
the United States is:States, it is culturally, here, just something that is kept quiet and private.
the United States is:And, of course, that breeds a lot of fear around it.
the United States is:I spent a lot of time in Botswana,
the United States is:actually working with a hospice program there, and got to know that culture well.
the United States is:And other cultures, too, that I've lived
the United States is:and worked in, like Thailand, where there's much more acceptance of death.
the United States is:I think, at least in part because, for
the United States is:many people and many walks of life, there isn't as much to be done.
the United States is:Don't get me wrong. The whole system in Thailand, for
the United States is:instance, is amazing, but they still don't do, for the most part, nearly as much, on
the United States is:average as we do here in the United States.
the United States is:Here in the US, you can't die with liver failure.
the United States is:You have to transplant that.
the United States is:It's almost mandatory.
the United States is:You have to go through dialysis, you've got to get coronary artery disease fixed.
the United States is:And if you need a valve replacement, you get that.
the United States is:We take that to an extreme.
the United States is:But I think other societies don't, with the result that a lot of people with
the United States is:serious illnesses here don't have to think about death.
the United States is:To deny that death exists for another
the United States is:six months, another yea, in ways that people in other countries can't.
the United States is:It's probably culture, but it's probably
the United States is:culture that medical technology has created.
the United States is:I think as a doctor, I think we're partly to blame for that.
the United States is:Are you able to give us any examples of
the United States is:dignity for different people? What does that look like?
the United States is:Yeah, sure. It's funny.
the United States is:The first book I ever wrote actually, was a book called Last Act.
the United States is:It was published by Simon & Schuster,
the United States is:which is now long out of the press, but it was about the kinds of choices that people
the United States is:make when they realize that their time is limited.
the United States is:And a lot of that has to do with, directly or indirectly, with dignity.
the United States is:How do you want to make the time that you have left mean the most?
the United States is:And for some people that's, it's doing
the United States is:something that they've always wanted to do.
the United States is:Often it's taking care of family members.
the United States is:It's sort of going into those final days on your own terms
the United States is:in ways consistent with who you think you are and who you've always tried to be.
the United States is:I have to ask about spirituality, the
the United States is:implications of death in that way. So considering that many religions and
the United States is:spiritual practices are wrapped around the idea of a soul, spirit, or afterlife, how
the United States is:does spirituality and medicine coexist in your work?
the United States is:I'm glad you said spirituality because I think one aspect that people bring to
the United States is:serious illness, and to the dying process, is organized religion.
the United States is:But I think there's a big realm of
the United States is:spirituality beyond that, that's defined in various ways, but...
Meaning:connectedness with others, connectedness with the universe,
Meaning:meaning purpose, all those are working elements of spirituality.
Meaning:And I think that's really a big part of what we do.
Meaning:And when you get palliative care in a good hospital, you get care from the team.
Meaning:And our team at Duke includes a physician, a nurse practitioner, for sure, but also a
Meaning:clinical social worker, and also a chaplain.
Meaning:And I think the really amazing chaplains are able to meet people where they are.
Meaning:And so we see everybody.
Meaning:We see Buddhists, people who are Jewish,
Meaning:Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, atheists, who are still often very spiritual.
Meaning:And so being able to provide that support is really critical.
Meaning:How does that affect you, in your work, when you see that?
Meaning:I'll answer the subtext that may be behind
Meaning:your question, and you can tell me if it's not.
Meaning:People say all the time that it must be so, so hard doing the work you do.
Meaning:Which I know you didn't ask, but it's a
Meaning:question that I get probably on a daily basis.
Meaning:And the answer is actually, frankly, I don't think it's as
Meaning:hard to be a palliative care provider that meets people
Meaning:as they're nearing the end of life, and helps them to get the most out of that
Meaning:life, because our focus always is on comfort and quality of life.
Meaning:So the first part of that answer is it's
Meaning:maybe not as hard as it seems like it would be.
Meaning:The broader and maybe more helpful part of
Meaning:that answer, though, is that it's really rewarding, and especially if you take a
Meaning:broader view of spirituality, and that includes what people have done and what
Meaning:they've accomplished in their lives and who they've helped and who they've had
Meaning:relationships with and what their dreams were.
Meaning:So yes, it's difficult working with people
Meaning:who are dying, but when people really get a chance to talk and share and describe
Meaning:all the amazing things they've done for other people, it's pretty special.
Meaning:And it's a special time to be in a patient family's life.
Meaning:We really appreciate you sharing it.
Meaning:These stories and illuminations really kind of help build some of the things that
Meaning:you were talking about, in terms of the culture around death.
Meaning:And it not being so scary and you talk about it being rewarding.
Meaning:I really appreciate you bringing that up.
Meaning:How do you think we can take steps, culturally, to normalize death, especially
Meaning:obviously with kids, but also just in general in the United States?
Meaning:I look at other cultures like Bhutan, and one of the elements of Bhutanese society
Meaning:is beginning to teach kids about death and dying in school.
Meaning:And that seems like a huge ask.
Meaning:We can't, in local school boards, even
Meaning:agree on what textbooks should be used, let alone something like that.
Meaning:But I think there are ways to get at this
Meaning:in a way that's productive, and maybe not so threatening.
Meaning:And a lot of the work that's going on in a
Meaning:lot of communities about grief awareness is one.
Meaning:Even if you don't think about dying yourself, you have probably lost somebody.
Meaning:And using that beginning to normalize grief, teaching people how to talk about
Meaning:grief and bereavement, how to support somebody who's grieving.
Meaning:Those are some interventions that are kind of public health interventions.
Meaning:Grief really is, especially in this COVID pandemic age.
Meaning:Grief is a public health issue.
Meaning:And giving the average person on the street some of the tools to help somebody
Meaning:who is bereaved and grieving, I think that will make the world a better
Meaning:place, and it will get people used to talking about death.
Meaning:That's one, kind of "out there" example.
Meaning:The other is encouraging people to think
Meaning:about advanced care planning and advanced directives.
Meaning:I'm personally not a big fan of those advanced directives.
Meaning:I'm not sure they do much to shape care,
Meaning:but it is a cue to begin thinking about what would you want, if you're ever in a
Meaning:position where you can't make decisions for yourself, you have a serious
Meaning:condition, asking people to think, even if they don't actually fill out an advanced
Meaning:directive, at least think about what that looks like.
Meaning:And have those conversations with family
Meaning:members over the kitchen table over the holidays.
Meaning:I think that's more guerrilla warfare
Meaning:against the culture of death denying, but I think it can also be effective.
Meaning:What do you think is the best way to go, in your professional experience?
Meaning:It depends.
Meaning:I think if you said all of your goodbyes,
Meaning:you've done everything that you need to do, or most of it, then a cardiac arrest
Meaning:in the middle of the night, dying in your sleep, it's not bad.
Meaning:But I do give people a caution that everybody says, I want to die in my sleep.
Meaning:I don't want any warning.
Meaning:I just want to go.
Meaning:And I usually say, well, yeah, I get that.
Meaning:But really, there's nothing else you want to do?
Meaning:Nobody you want to say goodbye to? N obody you want to apologize to?
Meaning:And they start thinking, well, all right,
Meaning:let me get that out of the way and see if you can arrange it in a couple of months.
Meaning:So, yeah, I mean, assuming that I've done
Meaning:everything I need to do, then quietly, no muss, no fuss, in the middle of my
Meaning:sleep would definitely, definitely be much nicer than getting eaten by a shark!
Meaning:Well, this is our last day.
Meaning:I'm grateful you came through to the podcast, So Curious!
Meaning:Thank you so much for giving us your time. Thank you.
Meaning:Thanks. It's my pleasure.
Meaning:Reflection time.
Meaning:Reflection time.
Meaning:Let's get real introspective.
Meaning:That was actually a more lively discussion I was expecting to have.
Meaning:Hey, he serves. Yeah, it was cool.
Meaning:Yeah. That's awesome, right?
Meaning:Seeing the shark is definitely something
Meaning:that makes you go like, am I about to kick the kick?
Meaning:I like how opening is about talking about
Meaning:the different ways that death is culturally perceived around the world.
Meaning:And also, you know what really stuck with me?
Meaning:That he was like, well, as long as you do everything you want to do, say everything
Meaning:you want to say, to who you need to say it to, make your amends and say, sorry, where
Meaning:you need to, it doesn't really matter how you die.
Meaning:He was kind of like, you can have cardiac arrest in your sleep.
Meaning:That's ideal. That's what he would want.
Meaning:But he was like, as long as you do what
Meaning:you need to do and you feel that fulfillment, it's all right.
Meaning:These conversations, like many others that we've had, really deepens the
Meaning:understanding of what it means to be a human and a person.
Meaning:We have this experience.
Meaning:There's definitely science and mechanisms behind it.
Meaning:But what does it mean to have a full life?
Meaning:What does it mean to live a good life?
Meaning:And honestly, the whole YOLO thing, live every day like it's your last...
Meaning:I love how we added a little bit more nuance to it.
Meaning:Like if we were all doing that, they'd be
Meaning:traffic jams all over the place, people going crazy.
Meaning:And it's like, yeah, well, living a good life might mean a little bit more than
Meaning:just running around and trying to jump off of a cliff or something.
Meaning:Yeah.
Meaning:I liked his calm way of approaching that in a very matter-of-fact manner.
Meaning:I'm sure that navigating that space daily and making
Meaning:innovations in that space is really an expansive way to start thinking.
Meaning:So for our last segment, we asked
Meaning:guests throughout the season how their fields relate to the biology of death.
Meaning:Here were some of their answers.
Meaning:From our TMS episode, Roy Hamilton.
Meaning:We're asking all of our guests to share
Meaning:their opinions on death for a quick segment for our final episode. And we want
Meaning:to ask you what happens to the brain when we die?
Meaning:From my perspective as a neurologist,
Meaning:I define what it means to die by what happens to your brain.
Meaning:From my way of thinking, and I think from the way of thinking of a lot of
Meaning:neurologists, when your brain ceases to be active, that means you are dead.
Meaning:To me, those two things are actually synonymous.
Meaning:That's, I guess, my answer to the question
Meaning:is that...you just asked me about two things that are the same thing.
Meaning:From our neuroethics episode, Anna Wexler.
Meaning:In neuroethics, there is an area of work
Meaning:that deals with people with disordered states of consciousness.
Meaning:So people who can't communicate.
Meaning:And when you can't communicate, you can be
Meaning:in a coma, you can be in a persistent vegetative state.
Meaning:There's varying degrees.
Meaning:It could be brain dead. Right.
Meaning:So there's varying degrees of that loss of
Meaning:function and loss of ability to be conscious, essentially, right?
Meaning:Loss of consciousness.
Meaning:And so, there's work now that tries to
Meaning:look, not by asking people can you communicate, but actually ask them
Meaning:questions and then measures what's going on...
Meaning:looks into what's going on in their brains in response to that question.
Meaning:So they'll say something like, if the
Meaning:answer to this question is yes, imagine yourself walking around your house.
Meaning:If the answer to this question is no, imagine yourself playing tennis.
Meaning:And so they know the areas of the brain that are associated with, say, like,
Meaning:playing tennis, and walking around the house.
Meaning:And so they'll try to see if there's any residual function in these people.
Meaning:So anyway, it's all to say that there's some work in neuroethics to try and
Meaning:, actually it's not even just neuroethics, it's neurology, to try and
Meaning:discover if there's some sort of way that people who have disorders of consciousness
Meaning:can communicate just by using their thoughts and not by speaking.
Meaning:And so that raises interesting ethical
Meaning:questions, like, if you can't speak, but they're discovering that you're having
Meaning:some brain activity in response to a certain question, do you get different
Meaning:treatment than, let's say, other people who have the same, or from the outside
Meaning:look like they have a similar loss of consciousness, right?
Meaning:What do you communicate to the families of these patients?
Meaning:So, there's really interesting work going on in this area.
Meaning:From our wellness episode, Krista Barfield.
Meaning:In the work that you do, how does it
Meaning:relate to the biology of death or the expansion of life?
Meaning:That's a big question.
Meaning:One thing that I will say for sure is that soil is the basis of all health.
Meaning:When we die, we go back to soil.
Meaning:And so there are these three nutrients that are so key when we're growing and we
Meaning:call them in the gardening farming world, NPK.
Meaning:And that's nitrogen, that's phosphorus, and potassium.
Meaning:Those things are absolutely necessary.
Meaning:And nitrogen is one of the main molecules in the chlorophyll, which is responsible
Meaning:for actually feeding the plant during the process of photosynthesis.
Meaning:Phosphorus is super necessary in order for the building blocks of the plant.
Meaning:So to help the plant stay strong, all the
Meaning:structures of it, the wall, the cell walls, and all of that, of the plant so
Meaning:that it can be strong and withstand things that may go on around it.
Meaning:Potassium is huge because it's necessary
Meaning:for the plants to be strong in that it can withstand drought and also can take in
Meaning:enough water, take in the nutrients that it needs.
Meaning:So when I think about us as humans and the biology of death, and if we are not
Meaning:fulfilled during our life with what we need, then the soil is not enriched.
Meaning:And I feel like that's our job, is that
Meaning:all of us are going to leave this planet at some point.
Meaning:So when we commit ourselves back to the soil, when our bodies are committed back
Meaning:to the soil, our life is what will have made that soil more enriched.
Meaning:And I think that's our job as humans.
Meaning:From our inclusion and advancing biology, Kyndall Nichols.
Meaning:It's really interesting when it comes to
Meaning:how I think about death, because it's just like something that happens and it's
Meaning:something that's inevitable at the end of the day.
Meaning:But when it comes to the brain, what it
Meaning:means to be dead, it just differs for literally all your research.
Meaning:So, like, traumatic brain injury, some people have heard of CTE, and I'm not
Meaning:going to pronounce it because I'm terrible at pronouncing it.
Meaning:But CTE essentially is like your brain is neurodegenerating.
Meaning:Right.
Meaning:And so it's getting to a point where it's just dying almost.
Meaning:And it's just like....
Meaning:But, people can walk around with CTE.
Meaning:So it's like the concept of your brain
Meaning:dying slowly and just degenerating and becoming brain dead.
Meaning:You can still move and you can still function and you can still live.
Meaning:So I just think it's interesting when it
Meaning:comes to death as a whole because dead is dead, right?
Meaning:But then you have all these different
Meaning:definitions for all these different scientists and all the different research.
Meaning:And what does that mean?
Meaning:Did it actually die? How did it die?
Meaning:Did it burst?
Meaning:Did it concave, like all these different words.
Meaning:So I literally think of death as something that is inevitable and it happens.
Meaning:And it's an individual experience for
Meaning:literally everyone, but an individual experience for literally every cell.
Meaning:Literally every cell can die differently.
Meaning:So it's just like it's a very individual experience that we all connect through.
Meaning:And that's crazy to me. But, yeah... [Laughter]
Meaning:From our organs episode, Robert Pugliesi.
Meaning:So if we're talking about death and 3D printing, that very quickly takes us into,
Meaning:like, Star Trek land, because again, our human aspirational goal, right, is the
Meaning:extension of life and of good quality life.
Meaning:And that's what I think makes bioprinting so exciting.
Meaning:Because people can see a world where
Meaning:you're like, my heart is not doing it anymore.
Meaning:I'm just going to go get a freshly printed heart.
Meaning:And you can imagine how that would change everything it means about being human and
Meaning:what life means and what death means, when the ability to create something that we
Meaning:used to think was lost forever is now possible, right?
Meaning:That is the aspiration.
Meaning:That's what gets people excited when we talk about bioprinting.
Meaning:Now, that's a long ways away.
Meaning:But we used to think that the things we're doing today were going to be impossible.
Meaning:That really changes the phrase "live long and prosper,"
Meaning:Doesn't it? I like that!
Meaning:Honestly, when death becomes like an option.
Meaning:Oh, my God.
Meaning:I'll put that off till tomorrow. What?!?!
Meaning:Yeah, and you start getting into some, like, what was that one movie where
Meaning:they're just, like, growing people for their organs?
Meaning:That's not how it's going to be.
Meaning:We're going to be able to make them. Wow.
Meaning:And from our biohacking episode, Ricky Solorzano.
Meaning:Well, there's something really interesting
Meaning:when it comes to death that I saw . It's called the Bio Design Challenge.
Meaning:Which is where students try to present
Meaning:projects on novel applications that they think will arise.
Meaning:And one of the students was talking about basically wherever something is dying,
Meaning:something new is growing or existing or living.
Meaning:So I think when it comes to the way we think of bio-design and death, whenever
Meaning:there's some sort of, whether it's something decomposting or something, to a
Meaning:degree, going away, this death, there's something new that's forming from that,
Meaning:whether it's another organism, or new nutrients for another place.
Meaning:So it's kind of a life cycle that continues.
Meaning:Well, that was a powerful way to end this season.
Meaning:Thank you so much to everyone who has been listening along and learning with us.
Meaning:We hope you enjoyed it and we'll see you next season.
Meaning:If you liked what you heard, leave us a review.
Meaning:And if you didn't like what you heard, keep it to yourself. Okay?
Meaning:I'm Angelica Pasquini.
Meaning:And I'm the Bul Bey.
Meaning:We'll see you guys next season.
Meaning:See ya!!
Meaning:Hi, this is Angelica Pa squini from So Curious!
Meaning:You know what?
Meaning:We love making this show okay, but sometimes they're great bits.
Meaning:We just can't fit them into the episode.
Meaning:So we put together a bunch of great bonus
Meaning:content and you can find that available at beyond fi.edu.
Meaning:This podcast is part of the Franklin Institute.
Meaning:The Franklin Institute is a science museum located in Philadelphia.
Meaning:The Franklin Institute's mission is to
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Meaning:Thanks to the producers Joy Montefusco and Jayatri Das.
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