On the final episode for this season, we are talking all about ghosting. Kirstin and Bey sit down with Dr. Gili Freedman to discuss her work in studying the impact of rejection. They discuss the best ways to reject someone and what is going on physiologically when we feel rejected. Finally, we end this episode talking to Philadelphia street artist Amberella.
Links for this episode:
- Learn more about Dr. Gili Freedman
- Learn more about Amberella
- Read episode transcript
Transcript
Hello hello and welcome to So Curious, presented by the Franklin Institute.
Speaker:We are your host.
Speaker:I am the Bul Bey.
Speaker:No, I'm the Bul Bey.
Speaker:And Bey and I are so happy to bring you
Speaker:our final episode of season two of So Curious.
Speaker:We did it! Yeah.
Speaker:Long season, but a fun season.
Speaker:We have covered a lot of topics.
Speaker:We have talked about how frogs make first impressions on their mates.
Speaker:We talked about hookup culture today.
Speaker:We talked about marriage, non monogamy and everything in between.
Speaker:And now, in true dramatic fashion, we are going to go out with a bang.
Speaker:In our final episode of this season, we
Speaker:are going to be breaking down ghosting and rejection.
Speaker:The demise of connection.
Speaker:Ghosting- harsh.
Speaker:In this episode, we are talking with social psychologist Dr.
Speaker:Gili Freedman about the best way to reject someone.
Speaker:So, get your notes and take notes.
Speaker:And later, we're going to hear from Philadelphia street artist Amberella about
Speaker:her art installation dedicated specifically to the man who ghosted her
Speaker:Epic, iconic -So Bey, as artists, in our field, rejection is a big old part of it.
Speaker:As performers, we just get our feelings hurt for a living sometimes, right?
Speaker:No, it's kind of true. Yeah.
Speaker:How have you kind of learned to navigate that in your career?
Speaker:It's obviously so much harder in the beginning, right?
Speaker:Oh, yeah.
Speaker:I think the hardest thing about being
Speaker:creative and going into these art spaces is that we're commodifying our emotions.
Speaker:And that's tough because when you get rejected, that's like, I really like this
Speaker:thing and I really wanted to see this happen.
Speaker:And it depends on how many times I get rejected.
Speaker:I'm a pretty stubborn and persistent person, and I tend to be patient.
Speaker:I think patience is really helpful for me
Speaker:because if an idea gets shut down, I'll wait and see if there's another
Speaker:opportunity for that idea to be accepted again.
Speaker:Because good ideas are just good ideas.
Speaker:It may not happen at that exact moment, but be patient and work on it still, it's
Speaker:not so much about, I don't know, jumping on every opportunity.
Speaker:You just have to kind of be patient.
Speaker:So I'm patient and I'm kind of equal parts grace, equal parts persistence.
Speaker:Damn.
Speaker:I have an exact opposite take on rejection, which is that it's just anytime
Speaker:I get rejected, I just jump into the school.
Speaker:Yeah, it's hard.
Speaker:It was really hard at the beginning, especially as an actor.
Speaker:Literally, the statistic is always like,
Speaker:for every 100 times you audition, you will get one of those.
Speaker:You're always being told no.
Speaker:And it's super hard in the beginning
Speaker:because, like you said, it's like, this is me, though.
Speaker:Don't take it personally. It's just business.
Speaker:It's like I'm not applying for a job to work at a certain place, like, I'm asking
Speaker:you to like me and you're like, right, but it's freaking hard.
Speaker:Oh, my God. And it never gets easier but you do learn
Speaker:better ways to be rejected and better ways to handle it.
Speaker:Which is why I think also it's really cool
Speaker:to hear that there is like a science behind it, right?
Speaker:And that's a great segue- we're going to hear some more about rejection from that
Speaker:scientific standpoint, so let's bring on our first guest rejection experts, dr.
Speaker:Gili Friedman. Welcome.
Speaker:Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker:Thanks for having me here. Yeah.
Speaker:So, Gili, do you mind just telling us a little bit about yourself, what you do?
Speaker:So I'm an assistant professor of psychology at St.
Speaker:Mary's College of Maryland, and I'm a
Speaker:social psychologist, and one of the main things I study is social rejection.
Speaker:Nice. Tell us about your academic journey.
Speaker:What inspired you to study social exclusion?
Speaker:So I started thinking about social
Speaker:exclusion when I was an undergrad at Haveherford College and I wound up doing
Speaker:my senior thesis on that topic and I was reading about it and noticing that a lot
Speaker:of the work really focused on how it feels to be rejected.
Speaker:And the answer is generally really bad, as you might imagine.
Speaker:But what there was a lot less on is what's
Speaker:going on with the person doing the rejecting, why are they doing it?
Speaker:How do they feel?
Speaker:Does it matter who they are as a person in terms of how they decide to do it?
Speaker:And so I went to graduate school at the
Speaker:University of Texas at Austin and wound up working with Dr.
Speaker:Jennifer Beer and started thinking about
Speaker:the sort of two sided nature of social rejection and when people decide to reject
Speaker:and the language they use when they're rejecting.
Speaker:And that's how it got started.
Speaker:Could you explain some of the different
Speaker:tools that you have used to study social rejection?
Speaker:And specifically since we're going to be
Speaker:talking about Ghosting today, specifically Ghosting?
Speaker:A Lot of the work that we do on ghosting and on rejection uses pretty typical
Speaker:self report methods like surveys and things like that.
Speaker:But we also have been able to use things like interactive narratives.
Speaker:So there's this tool called Twine that you can use online.
Speaker:It's free to use and you can create a story where people have choices.
Speaker:So if you remember like, choose your own adventure books where you go in and
Speaker:there's a choice and you get to decide for the choose of your own adventure ones like
Speaker:do I go into the cave or do I go explore the woods?
Speaker:And we use that for some of our rejection
Speaker:work, putting people in situations and asking them, what would you do here?
Speaker:Would you tell the person this thing or do you tell them this other thing?
Speaker:And so that's been great because it allows our participants to have a more immersive
Speaker:experience instead of just asking them questions.
Speaker:And it lets us look at some interesting ideas.
Speaker:For example, one of my at St.
Speaker:Mary's College in Maryland, I work with
Speaker:really great undergraduate students and they all do a senior thesis and so one of
Speaker:my students is doing one on rejection and she used this interactive narrative to
Speaker:look at deception within the context of rejection.
Speaker:And so she lets people be in this story
Speaker:where they're interacting with someone and they have to decide how to reject them.
Speaker:And thinking about how lies play a role in that.
Speaker:Can you explain why it's sometimes harder to reject than be rejected?
Speaker:I think that it can be really hard because of something called scriptlessness.
Speaker:This is something that researchers were talking about in the 90s.
Speaker:But the idea that when we're in a social situation, we have scripts that we follow.
Speaker:So if you're in a restaurant and someone comes up to you with a notepad, you know
Speaker:that they're probably going to ask you what you want to eat, and you're going to
Speaker:tell them that, and at some point they'll bring it back.
Speaker:But with rejection, we don't have any good scripts.
Speaker:There's no great way of rejecting because
Speaker:anything that would be a script is a cliche.
Speaker:So you could say it's not you, it's me,
Speaker:but everyone knows it's a cliche, so it doesn't work.
Speaker:And so you're put in a situation where you don't know what to say, there's no great
Speaker:thing you can say, and you don't necessarily want to hurt the other person.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:You just don't want to do whatever it is with them.
Speaker:And so that puts people in an uncomfortable situation that they don't
Speaker:know how to get out of, and we have no good answers for them.
Speaker:Do you have any good scripts to offer us?
Speaker:Can you give me a new script other than like, it's not you, it's me?
Speaker:I would love to. That's what we're trying to figure out.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So we don't have a great answer.
Speaker:We know that some things don't seem to
Speaker:help, so apologies don't seem to be a great solution to that problem, but we
Speaker:don't have a great answer for like, this is definitely what you should do.
Speaker:So you have an article that you wrote
"when saying sorry may not help 00:07:22
the impact of apologies on social rejection".
"when saying sorry may not help 00:07:27
Basically, you're finding that rejections
"when saying sorry may not help 00:07:30
that include apologies actually increase hurt feelings and increase aggression.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:07:35
Can you explain why you think this might be?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:07:38
In some ways this comes back to the idea of a script.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:07:40
And when we apologize to someone, like, in
"when saying sorry may not help 00:07:42
any context, we kind of expect that they're going to forgive us.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:07:46
So if I bump into you and say, I'm sorry, I expect you to say, oh, that's okay.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:07:50
Right? And if you don't, that's weird.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:07:52
And so what happens is we are kind of constraining people's responses when we
"when saying sorry may not help 00:07:57
apologize because there's a social norm they're supposed to follow.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:00
Now, if I rejected you, you're probably upset, you're probably hurt.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:04
It's not a great situation.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:06
And then I apologize.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:07
Well, now you need to tell me that that's okay.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:09
So you, in some ways need to comfort me,
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:11
even though I'm just the one who rejected you.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:13
And we think that that really puts people in a situation they don't like being in
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:17
because they're having to express forgiveness without actually feeling it.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:21
So if you've ever been in a situation
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:22
where someone has apologized to you and you're like, I really don't forgive you
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:26
right now, but you felt like you have to say, that's okay, it doesn't feel good.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:30
Right. Let's turn to the topic of ghosting,
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:32
specifically, what differentiates ghosting from other forms of rejection?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:36
Ghosting is different in that you're not actually communicating the rejection.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:40
Your lack of communication is the action.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:42
So we think about ghosting as ending a relationship by cutting off all contact.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:47
So in other forms of rejection, you might tell the person, right.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:50
Whereas with Ghosting, they're sending you messages.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:52
Maybe they're trying to get in touch with you and you're just not answering.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:55
And that leaves them in a state of not knowing.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:08:57
Right there's that moment when you've been ghosted where you're not actually sure if
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:00
you have yet, because maybe they just haven't responded.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:03
And I think that really differentiates it
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:04
from a more explicit form of rejection where, you know, oh, it's over.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:08
I'll jump onto the next question.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:09
Your article, "Ghosting and Destiny," you talk about implicit theories of
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:13
relationships that have identified two types of beliefs destiny and growth.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:18
Can you talk more about that?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:19
Yeah, this is really interesting work that
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:20
was still being done on how we think about the nature of relationships.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:24
And so people vary in terms of how they conceive of relationships in general.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:29
Not like a specific relationship, but overall.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:31
And so people can believe, for example, that a relationship is either going to
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:35
work or it's not, that the success of a relationship is destined from the very
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:39
beginning, and those are called destiny beliefs.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:42
Or you could believe that relationships
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:44
need to be worked on over time, that with enough effort, any relationship can work,
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:49
that relationships are like a garden that needs to be tended.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:52
Those are growth beliefs.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:53
And so people vary in terms of how
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:55
strongly they believe each of those things.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:57
Yeah.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:09:57
Can these theories help us understand ghosting any better?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:00
So what we found that we were really intrigued by was that people who have
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:03
stronger destiny beliefs feel more positively about ghosting.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:07
They're more likely to say they would
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:08
ghost, and they're more likely to have previously used ghosting to end
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:11
relationships before, which makes a lot of sense, because if you think that a
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:15
relationship is either going to work or it isn't, then just cutting it off when you
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:18
feel like it's not working anymore, that's probably pretty rational.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:21
Whereas if you're someone who thinks less like that and you don't think it's just
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:25
one person, and this is either it or it's not, then Ghosting might feel a little
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:28
harsh and like, why aren't you giving it more of a chance?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:31
Why are you just cutting it off, like, so completely?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:33
What are the research methods to measure
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:36
the impact of Ghosting and the reason people do it?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:39
What's the bar for that?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:40
So for a lot of that, it's really self report.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:42
So asking people to tell us, have you Ghosted before?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:45
Have you been Ghosted?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:46
How does that make you feel?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:48
Because with these things, it's your experience, right?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:51
If we want to understand your experience,
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:52
then sometimes just asking about that can be the best way of doing it.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:55
There are a lot of reasons that people
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:57
will give if you ask them, why did you go someone?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:10:59
And one of those is not wanting to hurt
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:01
someone's feelings, feeling like it's easier.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:03
The thing that keeps me really interested
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:05
in social rejection is the fact that you have two sides who have legitimate worries
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:10
and negative emotions, and they're trying to balance it.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:12
And it's not really a villain hero story, right, which is a lot of times how it's
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:16
portrayed in the media of like, oh, the person you rejected is a terrible person.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:20
They're breaking that other person's heart.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:21
But both people are managing complex emotions, and the rejecter might not want
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:26
to hurt the other person, and so they're looking for ways to do it, and maybe they
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:29
make bad decisions sometimes because we don't know how to do it.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:32
But I think Ghosting can really fall under
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:34
that category a lot of times of, I don't know how to end this well.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:38
I don't know what the right thing to say is.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:40
It's going to be really uncomfortable.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:42
Maybe if I just don't say anything, it'll be better for everyone.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:45
Do you have any personal accounts or
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:47
stories to share where the rejection had a more healthier outcome and the rejection
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:52
maybe had a more not so pleasant or pretty outcome?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:11:56
So I think one example I have of how complicated it is, is I had been on a few
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:02
dates with someone years ago, and it went pretty well.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:05
He had asked me that he had initiated the first couple of dates.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:08
I sent him a message about the third, and he wrote me back a very kind, lovely
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:12
message saying he wasn't interested, but it had been great to hang out.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:16
And I remember this because I felt hurt.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:19
And I was studying rejection at the time,
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:22
and I even knew, like, oh, this was a nice rejection, right?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:24
He did everything he was supposed to, but I still don't feel great.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:28
And I think that really highlights the complicated nature of it, right?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:31
That you can do everything right, and the
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:33
other person is still going to have feelings, and that's okay.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:36
That's just kind of part of the process.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:37
The one time I've ghosted someone, I did feel very guilty about it.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:41
I just didn't know what to say.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:42
It was exactly that situation.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:44
I wasn't interested.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:45
And they sent me pictures of graphs from their research in a text message.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:50
And I was just like, I don't know what to say to this.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:52
And I never responded.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:54
So that was probably not the most mature
"when saying sorry may not help 00:12:56
way of dealing with it, but it was 100% for reasons we just talked it, right.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:00
I didn't have a script. I didn't know what to say.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:02
I didn't want to hurt the person, but that's sort of how it wound up.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:05
Do you have any recommendations for ways
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:08
that might be a good way to reject somebody?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:10
I think in general, what the research has
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:12
shown is that not talking to people isn't great.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:15
So there's a lot of work on Ostracism,
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:17
which is the silent treatment, which has a lot of similarities to ghosting.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:21
And a lot of that research shows it's a really hurtful thing to do.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:24
It's hard to get over.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:26
And so I think when you can communicate,
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:28
that's going to be a better bet for the most part.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:30
And people generally tend to appreciate it.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:33
And I think in terms of what to say, I
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:36
think not apologizing is probably a good thing.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:39
I think thinking about what you would want to be told right.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:42
And remembering that that other person has
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:44
feelings and is also entitled to their feelings.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:46
Right. Because, again, you could say everything
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:48
right, and they still might not be super happy.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:50
And that's just the reality of the situation.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:52
Thank you for taking time and not rejecting us and stepping into the space
"when saying sorry may not help 00:13:57
with information and just a really open conversation.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:00
I really appreciate that.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:01
Yes, this is super interesting to hear.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:03
There is so much science and research behind something that feels so universal
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:07
but doesn't feel like it's talked about very often.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:09
So thank you for doing the work that you do.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:12
Thank you for having me here.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:13
It's been fun.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:15
Thank you so much to Dr.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:16
Gili Freeman okay, so when we talk about
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:20
ghost things, most of the time it's with dates, right?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:23
Yeah.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:24
But it can also be with friends, job interviews, other things.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:31
Have you ever been ghosted or in any sense, have you ever been ghosted?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:35
But I'm also curious, specifically when it comes to love, sex, and relationships.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:39
I would say a friend definitely just
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:41
created distance and just stopped speaking to me.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:44
And I'm like, well, what happened?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:46
I mean, I had a sense of what event took place that kind of sparked that behavior,
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:50
but no explanation, no clear explanation just kind of happened.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:55
And it is baffling.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:56
I do my best not to judge.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:14:59
We all are carrying all kinds of
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:01
social baggage and trying to just navigate that as best as possible.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:05
And it can hurt, but that builds resilience.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:10
That's a part of socialization.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:12
Like, you have to have some rejections I
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:15
can't imagine anyone who's never been rejected.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:17
Who's that person?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:18
Who's that person that's never been
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:20
ghosted, never been rejected, never been turned down.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:22
Part of me is like, well, they must be the most perfect person in the world, but in
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:26
reality, it's like, that means they just never have put themselves out there ever.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:29
Probably. Right.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:31
You have to at least take a risk.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:33
Whether you're trying to date, whether you're trying to audition, submit for
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:36
something, apply for a job, it takes a vulnerability.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:40
You have to have an ability to put yourself out there.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:43
And if you get rejected, I mean, you're going to at some point, right.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:46
Ghosting, in my experience, is like a private affair.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:50
Like, people kind of keep their stories of being rejected to themselves because it
"when saying sorry may not help 00:15:56
feels shameful or embarrassing or whatever.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:00
And our next guest has dealt with her ghosting in quite the opposite way,
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:05
because after she was ghosted, local street artist Amberla created a very, very
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:11
public art display on the streets of Philadelphia.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:15
Welcome.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:16
So, Amber, can you tell us a little bit about what you do?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:19
Introduce yourself?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:20
I've been between Philly and California for a couple of years now.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:25
I'm an artist, and I show my work typically in public places.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:30
As a Philly resident, I have seen your work all over.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:33
I love what you do.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:34
Can you tell us about your relationship to the city of Philadelphia?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:37
Philly definitely has a special place in
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:39
my heart, and I grew up in Pennsylvania in the suburbs.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:43
Once I was in middle school, I started
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:45
sneaking on the train to the city and, like, going to Hong Kong shows and
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:49
basements in West Philly, and I really fell in love with the city, and it was
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:53
always my dream to get to live there one day.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:57
I moved there in 99.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:16:59
You mentioned all your artwork being outside.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:01
I think during the Pandemic, we caught a
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:04
glimpse of Philadelphia in many cities around the country.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:06
Right. Completely empty.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:08
No cars, no thing.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:11
Just taking up space.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:12
How would you want to fill up or utilize space?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:14
Moving into the future, what comes to.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:16
Mind right away is more space for performance art.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:21
I just see the street filled with artists of all mediums.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:25
How long have you been a mixed media
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:27
artist, and is your art your main form of expression?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:30
I feel like I've been an artist since I
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:33
was born, and my mom just let me express myself in all different types of ways, and
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:40
it's definitely my main form of expression.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:43
My art is a living, breathing embodiment of my heart.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:48
I find inspiration from the was always
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:50
really inspired, actually, by advertisement and magazines.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:54
And, like, one of my series, I use the Magic Eight Ball.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:17:58
I use the label makers for one of my
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:00
series, so I kind of always draw from that time.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:03
Tell us about the haiku that you wrote for a man that you met on hinge.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:09
Yeah.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:09
So I wrote this out on a piece of paper, just, like, in my notebook, and took a
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:13
photo of it and sent a photo of it to a man.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:16
It's a haiku.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:17
It's called where'd you go.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:19
You sucked my melons.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:20
We ate meat lover's pizza.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:22
Did you get too full?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:24
Like, where did you go?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:28
I love it.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:29
I absolutely love it.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:32
Obviously, most people view ghosting as a disinterest in them.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:37
How, in your experience, might this not always be the case?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:41
I think there's a lot of different reasons that people go.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:44
That's the time that I think it's important to get curious and maybe, like,
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:48
ask questions, because there's other things that could be going on.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:54
One person's openness could lead to
"when saying sorry may not help 00:18:56
another type of thing maybe they haven't experienced before.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:00
The opportunity to relate with someone that's able to be that open.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:05
Could you give us that backstory?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:08
We went on a couple of really awesome dates.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:10
I hadn't heard from him in, like, I don't know, a couple of days.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:14
I just took it as an opportunity to really think about what could open the moment.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:20
I've been working with a couple of
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:21
teachers for the past few years about working with Relieving and Polarity.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:27
Something that I've learned from them is
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:30
that there are three stages of relating, and one is thinking of just yourself.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:36
And typically, when you get ghosted, it's like you feel attacked.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:40
You're like, why is this happening to me?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:42
The second stage of relating is thinking of us when you're thinking of both people,
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:48
and that would lead to a healthy conversation.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:51
So, like, maybe reaching out to him and saying, hey, could we have a conversation?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:56
Could we drop in? Like I'm curious.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:58
What happened?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:19:59
And then the third stage of relating, it's kind of considering a higher love when
"when saying sorry may not help 00:20:05
you're not thinking of just yourself or just the two people.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:20:08
A collective higher love would be like,
"when saying sorry may not help 00:20:12
how can I bring love to this moment without any story attached?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:20:17
And what could be a gift to this moment and open the moment and the gift that can
"when saying sorry may not help 00:20:22
be found in that situation for the other person?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:20:26
It's interesting because what I've learned over the past two years is something that
"when saying sorry may not help 00:20:31
I might consider a gift may not be a gift to that particular person.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:20:38
So with this man, I really thought about
"when saying sorry may not help 00:20:42
what would be a gift to him, like, what would open him, and I just kept getting
"when saying sorry may not help 00:20:47
the hit, like, something humorous bringing light to the situation.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:20:51
He texted me back immediately, and he was
"when saying sorry may not help 00:20:54
like, thank you so much for the levity that you're bringing to the situation.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:21:00
And he was like, I owe you, like, an explanation.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:21:03
And that opened the moment in such a beautiful way, and I truly was trying to
"when saying sorry may not help 00:21:09
gift him in that moment and just open things.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:21:11
I wasn't like, I'm going to write this because I want him to x, Y and Z.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:21:15
I just was like, how can I be brave and literally choose love over fear?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:21:20
I mean, it was clearly effective.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:21:23
I mean, it seems like he probably, among many things, not only appreciated
"when saying sorry may not help 00:21:27
the humor, but also the bravery to send that.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:21:30
Because we did have a whole big talk about Ghosting recently, and I haven't really
"when saying sorry may not help 00:21:33
heard much about people who confront the fact that they're being Ghosted.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:21:38
And so after this piece, sort of, like,
"when saying sorry may not help 00:21:40
gained momentum, did other people share that they had shared experiences?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:21:46
Yeah, totally.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:21:47
I mean, it's just, like, such a huge part of our culture.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:21:51
What I really loved is when I shared this in a public space, I did so in
"when saying sorry may not help 00:21:58
collaboration with an artist named Lisa in the Moon, and her perspective on Ghosting
"when saying sorry may not help 00:22:04
was more about how we experienced that in the workforce and, like, as artists.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:22:10
And I loved that she brought that piece to
"when saying sorry may not help 00:22:14
this because I think that it happens everywhere.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:22:16
It's not just in relating.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:22:19
When I shared this tai two that I had written for him in a public space, I asked
"when saying sorry may not help 00:22:24
him permission first because it really was a gift for him.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:22:28
And he was so excited.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:22:30
He's like, I love that you're going to share with the world your practice.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:22:34
I think it's just such an interesting way to show people we can be different.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:22:39
We really can choose love in these really creative, different ways.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:22:42
And I also had another situation with a man where I got ghosted.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:22:47
We were, like, going on a trip to the
"when saying sorry may not help 00:22:49
Joshua Tree, and it was all planned and booked, and he ghosted me.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:22:53
And I made a diorama of the Joshua Tree and made this whole video.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:22:58
It didn't go over well. Wow.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:01
Okay, so same tactic and not at the same response.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:06
On your Instagram- you have a couple of
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:09
posts of our pieces that you have been working on.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:11
One is "what can serve a higher love?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:14
What would I do if I was unafraid of losing love?" What do you mean by this?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:19
What's the story behind these concepts?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:21
One of the teachers that I have gotten to work with for the past two years, his name
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:26
is John Winemann, he has brought this whole concept that he'll say, like, what
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:31
would you do if you were unafraid of losing love?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:34
And I just feel like we've been programmed
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:36
our entire lives to close and protect ourselves.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:40
And we're in this fear because we're told
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:43
to act a certain way or an example would be with men, like, playing hard to get.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:48
Don't text him back too soon, like, all these things.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:51
And I'm like, no, if I was unafraid of
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:54
losing love in this moment right now, would I text him back?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:23:58
Being brave with my creativity surrounding
"when saying sorry may not help 00:24:02
being an artist of love, I love to make everything into art.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:24:06
And what a fun way to move through this world, especially in relating.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:24:12
It's fun and interesting and weird and exciting.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:24:15
I wouldn't want it any other way.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:24:17
I love the work that you're doing.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:24:19
I love seeing your art all around Philadelphia.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:24:22
Amberlynn, if you were right here in front
"when saying sorry may not help 00:24:24
of us, we would say all these things just the same.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:24:26
We really appreciate you coming on the So Curious podcast.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:24:30
So I'm headed to Philly next week and I'm
"when saying sorry may not help 00:24:33
starting an artist residency at my friend's shop called True Hand Society.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:24:40
I'm creating a new body of work called
"when saying sorry may not help 00:24:42
Passing Notes, and they're kind of going to look like when you think of ransom
"when saying sorry may not help 00:24:46
notes, but they're going to be on the wall.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:24:49
And the whole idea is that the person walking by is passing these notes, but I'm
"when saying sorry may not help 00:24:53
actually passing notes to the universe, and they're all going to share my healthy
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:00
needs and desires surrounding a partnership.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:02
I'm really excited. Thank you.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:05
I look forward to hopefully getting to see it around Philly.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:08
Yeah, we'll be checking for you. Thank you so much.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:10
Thank you. It's been awesome to talk to you.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:13
Wow, what a great way to wrap up the season.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:16
What has it meant for you to be able to host this season of So Curious.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:20
I mean a lot. But I think
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:23
obviously in my career path as a comedian and as a podcaster and an actor.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:29
I feel like so much of what I do in my job.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:33
Whether I'm acting in something that's
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:35
about sex, love and relationships or joking about it or whatever it may be.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:39
Or talking about it.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:41
I have so many opinions but so little
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:44
actual knowledge on the scientific standpoint.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:46
So genuinely, I feel like this is the closest time ever this podcast is like the
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:52
closest I'm ever going to get to going back to school.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:55
I'm actually learning so much by having
"when saying sorry may not help 00:25:57
these conversations, and it's been I mean, I hope it was beneficial for the
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:01
listeners because it was super beneficial for me.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:03
Yeah, absolutely. Shout out to the Franklin Institute.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:06
Oh, yeah.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:06
And Bey, what was your favorite part of the season?
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:11
I think it was my joke about pretzels.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:13
That's crazy, because that was my least favorite part.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:15
I'm just kidding.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:17
No, I think for me it was really insightful to see some of the mechanisms
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:22
and behaviors and functions and operations of science and seeing how we can learn
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:27
from that as individuals, but certainly as community members.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:31
I really love the note about frogs and relating all of that to empathy
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:40
and putting yourself in the position of the listener.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:42
That resonates with me as someone who makes music.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:45
Put yourself in the position of the listener.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:47
What are they feeling and what are they
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:49
looking for and all these other different things.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:50
And empathy. Empathy, empathy.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:52
You and those frogs are one and the same, basically.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:55
That's pretty cool.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:56
Damn, that was a great answer.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:26:58
Well, folks, thank you so much for joining
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:01
us all summer long in exploring this very relevant and very.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:06
Universal topic.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:08
I really hope that you, as the listeners,
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:09
have learned something as much as they and I have.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:13
We will see you next season for more
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:16
discoveries in human science and technology from the Franklin Institute.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:21
I'm Kirsten Michelle Cills go science and go birds.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:25
I am the Bul Bey.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:26
Thank you guys for listening this season.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:28
We appreciate you. We really do.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:30
Okay. Okay.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:32
I'm going to miss you.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:34
It's been great hosting the season with you.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:37
Thank you so much for joining the So Curious family.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:41
Thank you for having me.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:42
This has been amazing and it's been real.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:46
Absolutely.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:49
So Curious is presented by the Franklin institute.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:52
And special thanks to the Franklin institute producers Joy Montefusco and Dr.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:57
Jayatri Das.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:27:59
This podcast is produced by Radio Kismet.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:28:01
Radio Kismet is Philadelphia's premier podcast production studio.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:28:06
The managing producer is Emily Charash.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:28:08
The producer is Liliana Green.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:28:10
The lead audio engineer and editor is Christian Cderland.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:28:15
The editors are Lauren DeLuca and Justin Berger.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:28:18
Head of operations is Christopher Plant.
"when saying sorry may not help 00:28:21
The science writer is Kira Veyette.
