What goes into developing technology that can help us lead healthier lives–but also fits into our day-to-day lives? Perhaps a person with an idea and a person who can make it come to life? In this episode, Angelica and Bey talk to both sides of innovation- materials scientist Dr. John A Rogers and chief innovation officer at Penn Medicine, Roy Rosin.
Show Links
- Learn more about Dr. John A. Rogers, The Franklin Institute Awards 2019 Benjamin Franklin Medalist in Materials Engineering
- Learn more about Roy Rosin, MBA
- View Episode Transcript
Transcript
Hello and welcome to So Curious, a new podcast from the Franklin Institute.
Speaker:In this season Human 2.0, we will be talking to scientists and nonscientists
Speaker:about technology, innovation , and the human experience.
Speaker:We're your hosts. I'm Angelica Pasquini.
Speaker:And I am The Bul Bey. But you can just call me Bey.
Speaker:On today's episode, we're going to be talking with materials scientist Dr.
Speaker:John A.
Speaker:Rogers and chief innovation officer at Penn Medicine, Roy Rosin.
Speaker:Today we're going to be talking about
Speaker:wearable technology. What is the most advanced thing you've ever created?
Speaker:Oh, man. I don't know.
Speaker:It might be a sandwich.
Speaker:The most advanced thing that I have ever created is likely a song, right?
Speaker:But I would love to
Speaker:move forward in the future and think about ....I've brought this up before:
Speaker:behavioral functionalities in music, and how do you change moods?
Speaker:And it would be awesome, I don't know, maybe in the future there's like a watch
Speaker:or a phone that lets you know that this song will likely make you feel better.
Speaker:There's playlists that are titled "upbeat," and so on and so forth.
Speaker:But maybe there will be playlists in the future that has backed-up data and
Speaker:backed-up technology that will prove or show that there's a high likelihood that
Speaker:this song will make you dance or this song will make you feel good.
Speaker:When you first think of something and then you finally get to listen to it back. What
Speaker:is that process like for you, basically from concept to finished creation?
Speaker:Yeah, innovation and creating isn't necessarily something I feel I ever have
Speaker:an entire and complete and absolute grasp on.
Speaker:I have a thought and an idea and a feeling that I'm trying to evoke or connect.
Speaker:You tinker and you work in your workshop or your laboratory or your studio -- music
Speaker:or otherwise -- and you see how close you can get to that.
Speaker:But in the process of doing that, you discover other things.
Speaker:And I think that's what's really cool.
Speaker:And that's also a parallel between writing
Speaker:comedy, writing music, and also, I don't know, writing DNA or writing
Speaker:tech that people can use for their health, wellness, mental health, and so on.
Speaker:You're in the process, you're never quite
Speaker:sure where you are, but you keep asking questions to guide you along.
Speaker:I would say for me, there's the idea, and
Speaker:then there's exactly where you think it's going to go.
Speaker:And then you have these moments of hating
Speaker:it and then walking away, and then you kind of like have this Eureka moment.
Speaker:And the cool thing about technology that I think happens to people is they're working
Speaker:one way, and then one day you realize, oh, no, this is it.
Speaker:Or oh, yes, this is it, whichever.
Speaker:And that happens to me a lot.
Speaker:I'll have one line and then just have so
Speaker:much fun playing with it for a long time, and then it turns into something else.
Speaker:Our first guest is Roy Rosen.
Speaker:Roy Rosen has been the Chief Innovation
Speaker:officer at Penn Medicine since 2012, where he works with leaders across the health
Speaker:system in order to turn ideas into measurable impact in terms of health
Speaker:outcomes, patient experience, and new revenue streams.
Speaker:After earning an MBA at Stanford, Rosen got his start at the software company
Speaker:Intuit, where he created an internal incubator that focuses on turning ideas
Speaker:into actions and changed the way Intuit handles new business creation.
Speaker:Rosen believes in falling in love with the
Speaker:problem,and that it's not just about the technology, it's also about the team.
Speaker:Hi, Roy. Can you please introduce yourself?
Speaker:Hi, my name is Roy Rosin.
Speaker:I'm the Chief Innovation Officer at Penn Medicine.
Speaker:How are you? I'm good, Ben.
Speaker:Good to see you. Thanks for having me.
Speaker:Let's get right into this. Can you talk
Speaker:about the first moments of you creating or innovating something?
Speaker:That's such an interesting question.
Speaker:I never really thought of myself as an
Speaker:innovator, and I went to a company that sort of encouraged creativity,
Speaker:this is backed at Intuit, out in Silicon Valley.
Speaker:And I think it was just a small enough company that everyone was encouraged to
Speaker:take a lot of accountability about solving problems that they saw.
Speaker:And so that's really the way I think about the beginning of being innovative was more
Speaker:just having the freedom and independence of thought to say, hey, there's a problem,
Speaker:I think I can go solve it long before we understood really what friction meant and
Speaker:how to reduce friction to improve products.
Speaker:I remember when the Internet first came around, just thinking about how what
Speaker:everyone was doing was just getting stock prices.
Speaker:And one day I was just using...
Speaker:I think it was probably Microsoft Word...w here they have this little dropdown.
Speaker:You can look at your last files and pick a file that you've used recently...
Speaker:thinking to myself, why don't you do that for stock prices?
Speaker:Why don't you remember all the things you looked up in the past?
Speaker:Why don't you just make it a save function at the end?
Speaker:So all of a sudden you keep going back to
Speaker:the same site where you could get all the stuff at once instead of one at a time.
Speaker:The innovation wasn't about the little things.
Speaker:It was about the fact that you could take an idea and you could act on it.
Speaker:You could try something and see if it worked or if it didn't work.
Speaker:And over time, you know, those little ideas became whole products and whole
Speaker:businesses, which are the ones that I think I'm both
Speaker:most proud of and probably the ones that were material to the company.
Speaker:You mentioned friction. What is that and how does that play into innovation?
Speaker:I think a lot of what drew me to Penn was this study of behavioral science, of
Speaker:changing what people do, changing what they choose or don't choose the decisions
Speaker:they make or fail to make. And the world is just full of friction.
Speaker:Things that get in our way, they get in
Speaker:the way of doing the right thing, too often.
Speaker:When I think about what changes behavior, whether this is in software technology,
Speaker:whether this is out in the world, I tend to think of it now in terms of friction,
Speaker:things that either get in the way or make things easier to do.
Speaker:People tend to do the easiest thing to do, like water flows to the lowest point.
Speaker:And I think the reality is when you get rid of friction, you change behavior.
Speaker:If you make something easier to do, more people will do it.
Speaker:It's sort of that simple.
Speaker:In the health world, we want to have people take healthier behaviors.
Speaker:If you make it harder to get the unhealthy
Speaker:food and easier to get the healthy food, you'll see a change.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Friction management is a big deal.
Speaker:I was seeing that you were talking about the difference between innovation and
Speaker:creativity and how sometimes those are looked at as the same thing, and that's
Speaker:not right. Can you talk a little about that?
Speaker:Creativity and invention are about novelty and doing something that's new.
Speaker:I think about innovation a little bit differently in that innovation sort of
Speaker:implies you've captured value from those new things.
Speaker:So if you've invented something that's new that nobody ever buys and nobody ever
Speaker:uses, I'm not sure you've actually innovated.
Speaker:You've definitely invented something.
Speaker:You've been creative to think of something that's not been done before.
Speaker:But there's this gap between creativity, invention, and value capture...
Speaker:And innovation has this sense that you've actually done something that matters and
Speaker:you've actually done it in a way that you can capture value from it.
Speaker:Sometimes you think you're creating value and you're not.
Speaker:Yeah, well, it also means that you have to be able to measure value, because some
Speaker:people think of that in terms of economic value.
Speaker:Sometimes you might think of that as societal humanity value.
Speaker:So you get to define the needle you're
Speaker:trying to move, but it means that the needle has moved.
Speaker:Innovation implies the ability to move that needle and capture value.
Speaker:Why do you think it's so important to turn ideas into impact?
Speaker:What I often say is you have to turn ideas into action.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Because you have to do something to learn something.
Speaker:A lot of times you have this idea, you
Speaker:think it's a great idea, and in your head it's a wonderful idea, but then it meets
Speaker:the reality of the world and it doesn't work at all.
Speaker:The thing that I think we, and the whole
Speaker:industry, and everyone trying to do good problem-solving has learned over the last
Speaker:decade or two is that you've got to test these things as quickly as possible.
Speaker:You build this beautiful castle in your head about the way things are going to be.
Speaker:You've got to go figure out the way things really are.
Speaker:You don't know what human beings are going to do.
Speaker:You don't know how they're going to use it.
Speaker:You don't know whether they want it.
Speaker:You don't know any of those things.
Speaker:You don't know if it's going to work or not.
Speaker:I appreciate that answer so much.
Speaker:I know as an artist, as a creative, I have ideas all day.
Speaker:I kind of get locked into, I guess, paralysis through analysis.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:In the early days, I remember one of the big, big failures
Speaker:in the earlier part of my career was this concept of Quicken Brokerage.
Speaker:And we had 15 million active users on
Speaker:Quicken, and we had built the largest consumer software business out there.
Speaker:Total bomb, absolute complete failure.
Speaker:Nobody was interested.
Speaker:It was not a good idea.
Speaker:It's not what they wanted from us.
Speaker:And it was a really interesting experience to learn from that type of failure to say,
Speaker:wow, that's not the way you do these things.
Speaker:What's the importance of failure in innovation and being creative?
Speaker:It's one of my favorite topics because I think in the old days, people used to say,
Speaker:hey, make it okay to fail, create a culture where failure is okay.
Speaker:And I think what most people mean when
Speaker:they say that is make it okay to fail fast and cheap.
Speaker:The evolution of innovation and innovation methodology is that you can learn more
Speaker:quickly and more cheaply that you're going in the wrong direction.
Speaker:What's really going on is that you have a hypothesis and assumption.
Speaker:You are designing an experiment using
Speaker:these new methods where you can do it super fast and super cheap.
Speaker:And actually, it feels more like you've
Speaker:invalidated a hypothesis than failure, right?
Speaker:Basically, yeah. You found you were wrong, and it's okay to
Speaker:be wrong, but having it be okay to be wrong has a different connotation than,
Speaker:like, hey, "failure," because people think "Failure, oh, my God, you lost $10
Speaker:million." So how many of us can lose $10 million in two years of our lives?
Speaker:So, hey, you know what?
Speaker:Lose two weeks of your life and lose $200.
Speaker:That's the way I try to think about failure now, is think about as quickly as
Speaker:possible, you're going in the wrong direction.
Speaker:So, Roy, you have a genius philosophy.
Speaker:Would you mind walking us through the
Speaker:couple of philosophies that you have, explain them to us, and how you came up
Speaker:with them, and how they apply to your work?
Speaker:The first one that I love a lot is "fall
Speaker:in love with the problem and not the solution."
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And most of these are philosophies that I've adopted or adapted.
Speaker:I don't know how many I came up with myself, but Scott Cook was the founder of
Speaker:Intuit, and Brad Smith, who was our CEO for a long time...
Speaker:We used to talk about this falling up with the problem all the time, and it was just
Speaker:because you'd see so many cases where you had to iterate or pivot or change
Speaker:directions and you ultimately found a success.
Speaker:And so we would look at these things and
Speaker:say, how do you get to the winner when you're usually starting with a loser?
Speaker:On my very first day of work here at Penn,
Speaker:a bunch of people wanted to do online scheduling for doctor's appointments.
Speaker:It's a great idea. We should do it.
Speaker:It's way more convenient.
Speaker:But if you get down to what they were solving for, right, you know, the actual
Speaker:problem -- the actual problem! -- w as: you can't get in to see a doctor.
Speaker:So if we had gone up and done that kind of "Open Table" online scheduling, it would
Speaker:have simply been faster and easier to see that you can't get in.
Speaker:That's not the goal.
Speaker:The goal is to get in, right?
Speaker:Not to make it easier to see you can't get in.
Speaker:So if you fall in love with the problem of
Speaker:getting a new patient visit faster, you could do something different.
Speaker:And our teams here at Penn did a whole bunch of things differently.
Speaker:Things like load balancing, where, hey, maybe you can't get in there, but I can
Speaker:get you in over here at a different part of town, or even I can redesign the way we
Speaker:do care and free up some spots from people who may not need them so much.
Speaker:So there are other ways to get people in
Speaker:faster, but it wasn't going to be the "Open Table" online schedule.
Speaker:Being efficient, I love that. And very
Speaker:quickly, can you talk about the "Five So Whats?"
Speaker:Yeah, these things are really linked, right.
Speaker:My favorite story, and I tell the story
Speaker:all the time is the Hertz Rent-A-Car story.
Speaker:This really tells the difference between the "Five Whys," and the "Five So Whats?"
Speaker:Because people know about the Five Whys, right?
Speaker:Get to the root cause, don't attack the symptoms.
Speaker:That's the Five Whys.
Speaker:So if you're looking at renting a car back
Speaker:in the 1980s when I'm coming out of school, you're in that line for hours.
Speaker:But you knew what the problem was.
Speaker:The problem with this incredibly slow line.
Speaker:So you define the problem as a slow line.
Speaker:What's better? A faster line.
Speaker:So you start doing the Five Whys, right.
Speaker:Why is the line so slow?
Speaker:Why is the line so slow?
Speaker:But if you go the other way, instead of asking why, why, why, you ask, so
Speaker:what? So what? And so you say, well, what would be good about a faster line?
Speaker:What you're really trying to do is shrink
Speaker:the time between your plane landing and when you're on your way.
Speaker:As soon as you realize the metric is not
Speaker:the speed of the line, it's how quickly you're on your way.
Speaker:Now you can actually invent Hertz Gold. There's no line.
Speaker:And in fact, as soon as you realize it's
Speaker:really how quickly you're on your way, you could even beat Hertz Gold, right?
Speaker:Somebody picks you up at baggage claim, or
Speaker:Elon Musk sends a self-driving car, and it's right there outside baggage claim.
Speaker:You don't even go to the car rental place at all.
Speaker:So that's what we try to do, is, I get
Speaker:real deep on what is the person you're trying to help really solving.
Speaker:Sometimes you don't know that you have a problem until you see the solution.
Speaker:That's the cool thing about innovating, is
Speaker:that we can help people realize there's always a better way.
Speaker:A lot of times we get used to stuff in our environment that is friction.
Speaker:Back to the friction point. Right.
Speaker:You just work around it.
Speaker:And I think the more people get trained to
Speaker:observe what's around them and say, hey, that's not right.
Speaker:That could be better.
Speaker:The start of a lot of innovation is literally just noticing things.
Speaker:Absolutely. And then it sounds like surrounding
Speaker:yourself with people who are open to listening to your new ideas.
Speaker:And that's what this whole show is about, is connecting with people 100%.
Speaker:Yeah. And hearing their new ideas.
Speaker:And we've learned a lot. Yeah.
Speaker:Thank you so much for coming on and taking the time.
Speaker:I appreciate your having ,e.
Speaker:I mean, I think those connections are absolutely essential.
Speaker:It's an amazing thing when you get an interdisciplinary team together.
Speaker:, who all see that problem from different angles. And that's how you generally go
Speaker:from that insight to some kind of solution that works.
Speaker:Totally. Beautiful.
Speaker:Love that. What a beautiful way to end.
Speaker:Thank you. Thank you for your time.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Okay. So that conversation definitely has my gears turning.
Speaker:I love the focus and the perspective of falling in love with the problem.
Speaker:That changed everything at that point when I was thinking about
Speaker:all the things that I work on in terms of music and creative collaboration.
Speaker:Yeah. It's all perspective.
Speaker:I love that he was talking about that.
Speaker:Yeah! How do you engage with solutions or hurdles, whatever that might look like.
Speaker:Walking away and then coming back. I think it's great to take space.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Because the dwelling on something is really where the problem gets worse.
Speaker:I mean, you're hitting right on it. Right.
Speaker:In the conversation, he said he didn't do certain things with a laser-lock focus.
Speaker:And it's just I don't know...
Speaker:It always hits me as... I don't know.
Speaker:It's funny. I guess?
Speaker:Serendipitous? When you do something unintentional,
Speaker:without focus and it connects so deeply with people.
Speaker:It's true.
Speaker:I mean, the most ironic thing is the less that you focus and worry and try too hard,
Speaker:the more beautiful things end up showing up.
Speaker:Yeah. I guess it's that conscious and
Speaker:subconscious brain dance going back and forth.
Speaker:Totally.
Speaker:And I think for the future, someone like this is really trailblazing and helping
Speaker:people sort of free themselves up to really innovate and think big,
Speaker:think outside the box, think in ways that actually make huge differences.
Speaker:And sometimes with not so much efforting, more like...working smarter, not harder.
Speaker:So now that we've discussed how big ideas
Speaker:are generated, let's talk to someone who makes big ideas reality.
Speaker:Our last guest, John A.
Speaker:Rogers, is a professor of materials
Speaker:science and engineering, biomedical engineering, and neurological surgery.
Speaker:His interests and research cross many
Speaker:diverse fields, all with the purpose of providing insights into our health and
Speaker:better understanding of our bodies so that we might extend the human lifespan.
Speaker:Among all of Roger's incredible
Speaker:innovations, his development of wearable technologies called epidermal electronic
Speaker:systems, or EES, has the potential to transform the way we treat patients.
Speaker:EES are wireless, flexible, battery-free, and can be used as heart monitors, to
Speaker:monitor electrolytes, or even to map the brain.
Speaker:Hey, John, can you introduce yourself? Yeah.
Speaker:So maybe I'll just start by recapping wearable technology as it exists today.
Speaker:And many people are familiar with the Fitbit and the Apple Watch and all sorts
Speaker:of related types of devices that mount on the wrist.
Speaker:Anyway, there are many different types of
Speaker:commercially available devices of that type.
Speaker:Those are known as "wearables," and they've kind of defined the category.
Speaker:And I think they're great devices.
Speaker:They have broad adoption.
Speaker:They're useful for many types of applications.
Speaker:But I think where body-integrated devices
Speaker:-- thinking about wearables more generally, not just those that kind of
Speaker:loosely coupled to the wrist or the finger, but by skin-integrated devices
Speaker:that offer medical-grade information streams continuously.
Speaker:So thinking about the measurements that are done in an intensive care unit, how
Speaker:could you reproduce that kind of monitoring function in the form of the
Speaker:thin, soft patch that could mount on a relevant part of the body, not just the
Speaker:wrist, but really kind of anywhere on the body?
Speaker:I think the most meaningful applications
Speaker:are going to be with people who really need the monitoring capabilities, that
Speaker:there's a real compelling medical requirement to stay healthy.
Speaker:You really need to use this device. And I think a lot of that fear drops away.
Speaker:These are not, at least initially, designed for healthy people.
Speaker:Totally.
Speaker:And what really impressed me was that just an adhesive sticker, like a small sticker,
Speaker:what I saw on an infant's chest and how that can actually work as a battery-free,
Speaker:flexible wireless device that is monitoring the infant's heart rate.
Speaker:Is that correct? Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, the vision that we have is to build an electronic monitoring system in
Speaker:the form factor of a kid's temporary tattoo.
Speaker:That would almost be the ideal type of physical form for a device of this type.
Speaker:You put it on, you don't even know it's there, maybe even have graphics on top.
Speaker:It looks cool.
Speaker:That's what we had in mind, and we were able to do that.
Speaker:Any points or emphasis in your career that
Speaker:made you realize that you wanted to focus on improving experience?
Speaker:There wasn't a specific moment in time.
Speaker:I guess as my career has evolved, I've
Speaker:always been interested in new technologies and engineering.
Speaker:And I think devices that have an impact on
Speaker:human health for us represent the most compelling opportunities.
Speaker:In your head, in the beginning, did it
Speaker:look similar in your mind to what you ended up creating?
Speaker:Pretty much.
Speaker:I think we kind of had the idea, and I actually created a slide...
Speaker:So I took a temporary tattoo, put it on my
Speaker:arm and took some pictures of it and squeezed my skin and stretched it around.
Speaker:And you can see how the tattoo responds in that way.
Speaker:And I told my students we want to build electronics that look like that.
Speaker:And those pictures created great
Speaker:visuals, to keep the students kind of focused on the end goal.
Speaker:And I think they got excited about it, too.
Speaker:It's a very strong motivating factor.
Speaker:When you're slogging it out in the lab late at night, you're thinking about
Speaker:if this is successful, all these different things are going to happen.
Speaker:And how long are you in that process with people?
Speaker:That's a great question.
Speaker:I think you kind of have the vision, OK? And that doesn't take very long.
Speaker:Maybe you have that idea one day. Right.
Speaker:But then making it into reality, that's a really long process.
Speaker:We published our first
Speaker:simple prototype with the building blocks in this temporary tattoo format in 2011.
Speaker:Just to give you a sense of the time
Speaker:scale. You have to stick with these things.
Speaker:It really requires a lot of persistence.
Speaker:I think that's a really important attribute if you want to do technology
Speaker:development is you've got to be patient with it.
Speaker:I've worn lots of these electronic tattoos.
Speaker:I'm very much a user of the technology as we're developing it because it's kind of a
Speaker:human factors issue, like...you can develop a great piece of technology, but
Speaker:if people don't want to use it, it's useless.
Speaker:As I mentioned before, kind of reproduce
Speaker:the gold standard monitoring capabilities that you find in an ICU, let's say, in a
Speaker:children's hospital here in Chicago, where we do a lot of work...
Speaker:But they're very cost effective and they
Speaker:can be deployed into even very challenging environments.
Speaker:And so we have deployed, I don't know,
Speaker:10,000 to 20,000 units into Zambia, Kenya, Ghana, India, Pakistan, and Mexico.
Speaker:And so I spent a couple of weeks myself in Zambia, where we're using these devices to
Speaker:monitor maternal, fetal, and neonatal health.
Speaker:So we monitor women during the delivery process.
Speaker:We monitor their health, the health of the
Speaker:fetus, and then the health of the neonate immediately after birth.
Speaker:And seeing the kind of impact that that kind of medical monitoring can bring to
Speaker:the care of patients in those parts of the globe, it's very powerful.
Speaker:It serves as a very strong motivating force here in the States.
Speaker:Things come up around...
Speaker:Potentially, as this technology progresses into society, into day-to-day use outside
Speaker:of a hospital, if people would have to worry about things like data collecting.
Speaker:What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker:Yeah, data management is really important.
Speaker:So I think there are opportunities
Speaker:associated with data, and then there are risks associated with data, the latter
Speaker:having to do with data security and health security.
Speaker:And you have to think about encryption and
Speaker:HIPAA-compliant cloud storage and who's getting access to the data.
Speaker:All very important questions.
Speaker:But the data is really enabling, in the
Speaker:sense that now we can think about population-scale data collection.
Speaker:So I think artificial intelligence, machine learning, convolutional neural
Speaker:networks, all these advances in data analytics are going to intersect with
Speaker:these advances in wearable 2.0-type devices in a very powerful way.
Speaker:I think there are huge opportunities in doing more with the data.
Speaker:Right, right! And I appreciate you bringing that up.
Speaker:As we've been having all these
Speaker:conversations in these different fields of science, there's been constant back-and
Speaker:-forth between the development of the technology, and then the ethics.
Speaker:And so, can you talk about accessibility and why it's important to have everybody
Speaker:have an entry point to develop an advanced technology and medical treatment?
Speaker:Yes, it's a great question, and it's
Speaker:really embedded directly into our thinking when we're doing our research and coming
Speaker:up with designs is, what's going to be cost-effective so that it can be made
Speaker:available to everyone, not just high-end hospitals, small segments of the
Speaker:population, but really everyone, and not just here in the US.
Speaker:As I mentioned before, LMICs anywhere across the globe, that's going to be the
Speaker:most impactful way to do technology development.
Speaker:And that cost consideration has to be built into the thinking.
Speaker:You're thinking about equity, you're
Speaker:thinking about disparities in health outcomes.
Speaker:You can look at the statistics.
Speaker:It's quite striking, and a lot of that is
Speaker:associated with the cost of how care is done today.
Speaker:And I think new technologies can reduce those costs across the board.
Speaker:We're interested in everything, anything, that we can get out of our lab into the
Speaker:hands of people who could benefit from the technology, we're all in!
Speaker:We have to prioritize, obviously.
Speaker:And I think for us, we want to focus on serious medical-type applications.
Speaker:But a lot of the consumer-oriented, as
Speaker:you're suggesting, maybe more mundane a pplications, are still interesting because
Speaker:they can drive volume, and they can drive manufacturing flows, and cost.
Speaker:And so if you can find dual-use, right?
Speaker:Not just medical but also consumer, there are benefits that flow back and forth.
Speaker:Well, thank you so much for explaining
Speaker:this really fascinating and specific thing that you do.
Speaker:And. Yeah, it's really, really interesting.
Speaker:Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Speaker:Well, you know what? I'm still not getting
Speaker:a Fitbit, but I really appreciate everything I learned today.
Speaker:Thank you so much for listening to this
Speaker:episode of So Curious! presented by The Franklin Institute.
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Speaker:our Managing Producer Emily Charish; our operations head Christopher Plant; our
Speaker:Associate Producer Liliana Green; our audio team Christian Cedarlund, Goldie
Speaker:Dingley, Lauren Deluca and Brad Florent. Our development Producer Opeola
Speaker:Bukola; our science writer Kira Villette; and our graphic designer, Emma Seger.
