In this episode, Kirstin and Bey are joined by associate professor of anatomy and neurobiology Dr. Jonathan Wisco and a few of his students. We will be hearing about what the next generation is focusing on in terms of providing equal care for people with different gender and sexual identities. Please note: This episode was recorded prior to the overturning of Roe v Wade.
Links for this episode:
- Learn more about Dr. Jonathan Wisco
- Read episode transcript
Transcript
Hello and welcome to So Curious, presented by the Franklin Institute.
Speaker:We are your hosts.
Speaker:I am Kirsten "Go Birds!" Michelle Cills.
Speaker:I am The Bul Bey.
Speaker:Kirsten and I are so excited to bring you this season that talks all about the
Speaker:science behind love, sex, and relationships, everything from your brain
Speaker:on love to why we obsess over our favorite television characters, to how science and
Speaker:tech are changing our relationships with each other.
Speaker:For this episode, we are going to join Dr.
Speaker:Jonathan Wisco and his students for a
Speaker:roundtable discussion about people's access to sexual health and medicine.
Speaker:This topic is super important to me, not
Speaker:only as a woman in the year 2022, but also as someone who was raised by a mom who was
Speaker:a high school sex ed teacher for most of my childhood.
Speaker:And talking about sexual health is so
Speaker:important, but it makes people real uncomfy sometimes.
Speaker:And that's tricky, because if it's not
Speaker:something we talk about, that's when things start to get bad.
Speaker:We have to have this conversation.
Speaker:I'm really excited to be talking to Dr.
Speaker:Wisco and his students.
Speaker:But uncomfortable or not, we have to talk about it.
Speaker:Because sexual health is an important part
Speaker:of being healthy. Living through a pandemic, obviously, we've seen how people
Speaker:don't [all] have the same kind of access to healthcare and medicine.
Speaker:Definitely. And when it comes to sexual health, we are
Speaker:seeing in real time how different values around sex and reproductive health care
Speaker:and all of that in different parts of the country add all of these layers of
Speaker:complexity to who can have access and who can't.
Speaker:Right? So let's get some experts to help us make
Speaker:sense of all these questions and curiosities that we have.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So on that note, let's jump right on into our conversation with Dr.
Speaker:Jonathan Wisco and a few emerging minds in the field.
Speaker:Dr.
Speaker:Wisco, can you introduce yourself and tell us what you do?
Speaker:Sure, absolutely. My name is Dr.
Speaker:Jonathan Wisco.
Speaker:I am an associate professor at Boston
Speaker:University School of Medicine, in the Department of Anatomy and Neurobiology,
Speaker:and I am interested in lifespan medicine and life access medicine.
Speaker:Which I think brings me here, because we're really interested in taking a look
Speaker:at sexual medicine as it's related to our health.
Speaker:Right. Amazing.
Speaker:And let's just go around the horn and figure out who's all here with us.
Speaker:We got a nice, lively group today of
Speaker:Masters, undergrads, studying all kinds of fun things.
Speaker:Let's introduce everyone.
Speaker:Hi My name is Anya.
Speaker:I am a second year Masters student in the Department of Anatomy and Neurobiology at
Speaker:Boston University School of Medicine, and my research with Dr.
Speaker:Wisco focuses on identifying health
Speaker:disparities amongst pelvic cancer patients.
Speaker:Awesome. Thank you. I'm Estefenia Rivera.
Speaker:I'm currently in Cornell.
Speaker:My major is Human Biology, Health and Society.
Speaker:And I work with Dr.
Speaker:Wisco on a project entitled "Sex and
Speaker:Gender." But it was, like, on the field of athletics, so just basically studying the
Speaker:health disparities that affect athletes due to their gender.
Speaker:And last, but certainly not least... .
Speaker:My name is Alexandra Gates.
Speaker:I'm a fourth-year undergraduate student at Elizabethown College.
Speaker:And my research with Dr.
Speaker:Wisco is about overviewing sexual
Speaker:differentiation and determination with the current literature, and then comparing
Speaker:that to what we currently teach in healthcare programs, as well as how that
Speaker:applies to the standards of care set for transgender and non-binary people.
Speaker:Incredible. Yeah.
Speaker:So, yeah, let's just right into it.
Speaker:What kind of access disparities exist when it comes to sexual health medicine?
Speaker:Let's go with you, Dr. Wisco.
Speaker:I'll just give you a quick overview.
Speaker:We are really interested in this problem
Speaker:of why people, particularly of different sexual orientations and different gender
Speaker:preferences, have such a difficult time accessing care.
Speaker:I'm going to turn this over to Anya
Speaker:because she's done an incredible amount of work in this particular space as an
Speaker:overview, so she might have a better perspective.
Speaker:But that's the question we were trying to answer.
Speaker:And what Estefenia and Alex are looking at our nuances underneath that umbrella.
Speaker:So why don't we start with Anya? Go ahead, Anya.
Speaker:Yeah. So Dr.
Speaker:Wisco and I started this project with
Speaker:prostate cancer research, and we focused our research question on an alternative
Speaker:way to diagnose prostate cancer without using an MRI.
Speaker:So I'll researching how patient access to
Speaker:insurance could hinder their ability to proceed with their diagnostic imaging.
Speaker:We found a lot of barriers that patients face when it comes to health care access.
Speaker:So by assessing all the barriers to
Speaker:healthcare access, we were able to discover, like, when a patient may
Speaker:completely stop care due to specific circumstances or situations which
Speaker:ultimately impacts their cancer diagnosis and treatment.
Speaker:Wonderful.
Speaker:So do you have any possible solutions that you have come across?
Speaker:As far I know, that's what most of your work is.
Speaker:Do you have anything that has stuck out to you?
Speaker:Yeah, so we basically found
Speaker:many barriers to healthcare access in terms of physician education.
Speaker:And amongst these topics is the idea of
Speaker:sociocultural bias and absence of patient navigation that
Speaker:play huge roles in the delay or absence of healthcare access.
Speaker:I found a really good paper to talk about this, and it refers to Dykes & White's
Speaker:2009 paper about physician education playing a big role in disparities. It q
Speaker:uotes, "recent studies suggest physicians prejudices substantially influence their
Speaker:feelings about patients and their treatment decisions.
Speaker:And as a result, such prejudices appear to
Speaker:be major contributing factors to healthcare disparities.
Speaker:" So just in terms of education and improving, that could help overcome.
Speaker:And, really quickly, how could you explain all of this to a child?
Speaker:How can this be stripped down?
Speaker:That's a good question.
Speaker:I think some of the things that Anya discovered, if I might interject any, is
Speaker:actual, also, barriers that the patients face, which you alluded to.
Speaker:So, transportation barriers, insurance
Speaker:barriers, comfortability barriers with a particular caregiver, racism barriers.
Speaker:There's all sorts of other barriers.
Speaker:And I think if we were to boil this down to explaining this to a child, I would
Speaker:probably say if you wanted to play in the sandbox with a friend, but you couldn't
Speaker:get to the sandbox, you wouldn't be able to play with your friend.
Speaker:What are all the barriers that are preventing you from playing in the
Speaker:sandbox -- or even just getting to the sandbox, let alone playing in the sandbox
Speaker:-- that prevents you from having a fun time with your friend?
Speaker:I think it's important that we have Alex
Speaker:and Estefenia chime in because they did a lot of work in terms of identities.
Speaker:And so a big barrier that we are
Speaker:discovering is just...Anya has alluded to physician bias and physician education.
Speaker:Even the individual identities and how
Speaker:caregivers perceive those identities has been a major barrier.
Speaker:So why don't we start with education?
Speaker:Why don't we start with Alex, and then
Speaker:we'll get into a more specific realm of athletics.
Speaker:So when it comes to barriers of care,
Speaker:specifically, transgender people have a huge number of them.
Speaker:One of the big ones is money, because,
Speaker:likely due to higher levels of workplace discrimination and harassment, transgender
Speaker:people are much more likely to be unemployed or live in poverty.
Speaker:There's also a lot of barriers trying to
Speaker:get quality insurance to cover things like pelvic exams.
Speaker:So from that aspect, it's difficult to seek treatment when you can't pay for it.
Speaker:A second barrier that's really important
Speaker:is just a general level of distrust in the healthcare system.
Speaker:And it is totally valid because there's a
Speaker:long history of transgender people being discriminated against in healthcare.
Speaker:A lot of this is due to a lack of knowledgeable providers.
Speaker:And this is just, also, reflects back on the educational things that are taught
Speaker:. A lot of the educational standards, even though our literature has continued to
Speaker:evolve and our knowledge of how to treat people on a more inclusive level has
Speaker:continued to grow, what we teach in schools hasn't really reflected that.
Speaker:It's stayed fairly stagnant.
Speaker:And even beyond the lack of good guidelines set to treat people that maybe
Speaker:don't fall into this binary system of sex, we've got the idea of discrimination.
Speaker:Sometimes it's intentional.
Speaker:There's, like, intentional malpractice.
Speaker:People are being discriminated against due
Speaker:to their identity, and sometimes it's not necessarily even intentional.
Speaker:There's this phenomenon called "Trans Broken Arm Syndrome," where
Speaker:basically the story goes, a transgender person will walk into a hospital with a
Speaker:broken arm, and they're like, I have a broken arm.
Speaker:Please help me.
Speaker:And instead of actually treating a broken arm, the physicians are so curious about
Speaker:the fact that they're transgender that they don't treat the problem at hand.
Speaker:So then we get unintended discrimination.
Speaker:That is so...
Speaker:Have you heard of this before?
Speaker:No. No. It's heartbreaking.
Speaker:I definitely want to have a moment for Estefenia to chime in.
Speaker:But I certainly would love to respond to that.
Speaker:And everything that you guys have been
Speaker:bringing into this conversation, it's really mind-blowing.
Speaker:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker:And going off the topic of transgender individual, and not only how medicine is
Speaker:affecting them and they're not able to getting the treatment that they deserve,
Speaker:but also you have the societal aspect of it.
Speaker:So, for example, transgender individuals want to compete in a sport and right now
Speaker:they can, but this is a very controversial topic, because we don't even fully
Speaker:understand what's going on in this individual's body.
Speaker:And this is why many physicians are
Speaker:intrigued and they fail to give them the right treatment.
Speaker:So right now there's this situation in
Speaker:Congress and people don't actually understand what's going on.
Speaker:They don't know what to do. They think just because a person is born a
Speaker:man and then becomes a transgender woman, she would always have the benefit of being
Speaker:bigger and having bigger bones, having bigger muscle.
Speaker:But people don't actually understand what's going on.
Speaker:And there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker:It's just there's this narrative of people not being educated and this misinformation
Speaker:being spread in [such] huge platforms as the government.
Speaker:So there's this need for education.
Speaker:And that's what my research focused on, on understanding what has been studied
Speaker:specifically in the transgender field regarding sports.
Speaker:And that conclusion was pretty standard and pretty obvious.
Speaker:It's just like this is understudied and if
Speaker:we want to make laws that affect these athletes, more needs to be done.
Speaker:These people can't suffer just because we haven't studied the effects of hormone
Speaker:therapy on their bodies and the implications of this.
Speaker:And we have a lot of examples with athletes that are transgender and that
Speaker:succeed and both not succeed in their new field of competition.
Speaker:There was a swimmer, and I think a lot of people are familiar with her, Lia Thomas.
Speaker:And there's this other weightlifter (I
Speaker:forgot her name right now), but she competed in the Olympics.
Speaker:And in both cases you have one athlete that succeeded and she was able to win.
Speaker:And in the other case, you have one
Speaker:athlete that was eliminated in the first round of the Olympics.
Speaker:So there's this narrative of what's
Speaker:actually going on and we don't fully understand this.
Speaker:And in order for us to move forward, there's a need for more scientific
Speaker:research to be done on these specific people.
Speaker:They shouldn't keep suffering.
Speaker:So you all have given Kirsten and I a great deal to chew on, to think about.
Speaker:I'm going to attempt to say it back to you
Speaker:and you let me know if I'm completely off base or absolutely accurate.
So:healthy looks different for everybody.
So:That's principle number one.
So:I got it right, I got it right!
So:So healthy looks different for everybody, and our systems and institutions are
So:structured very rigidly where it can't serve everyone's health needs.
So:Is that it? Did I get it right?
So:I like how you worded that. Health,
So:particularly sexual medicine health, is different for everyone.
So:We've been highlighting transgender health
So:because that has the highest disparity and lack of attention.
So:But even if we talked about cisgender health and if we actually added in the
So:concepts of race or socioeconomics, the bottom line that you mention is the key.
So:Health is different for everyone.
So:How we address it, how we consider it, how we approach it.
So:And that, I think, is the problem, is that
So:we try to use a "one size fits all" type of environment and approach to everything.
So:And that just doesn't work anymore because
So:we're now recognizing that people need individualized attention.
So:Yeah! And anyone who knows me personally
So:knows how passionate I am about the first point you brought up about how looking
So:different to everyone because I'm terminally ill, I have cystic
So:fibrosis and I'm not on oxygen right now, but I often am.
So:And it's so insanely different the way I'm
So:treated versus when I'm on oxygen and when I'm not.
So:I'm so passionate about the fact that you never know what's going on with someone.
So:So I love that you all are fighting this
So:good fight, especially when it comes to reproductive health and sexual health.
So:They are for sharing that.
So:Yeah, absolutely.
So:I'm just curious because we were talking about misinformation.
So:And obviously there is a disconnect,
So:particularly when we are teaching in the classroom, things about sex and gender and
So:what it is that we know and what we're teaching any age group in the classroom.
So:Do you have any ideas as to -- this is kind of two-part -- but why does this
So:disconnect exist and kind of how can we bridge that gap?
So:So in schools, we teach a lot of things that are very simplified.
So:We teach this idea that sex is part of a binary system and that sex and gender are
So:the same thing, when neither of those are really true.
So:That exists, just first of all, because at the time these educational standards
So:were set, maybe that was what we knew to be true.
So:Since then, we know that it's not.
So:So our understanding through literature
So:has increased, but our education hasn't gone with it to close that gap.
So:And I think a lot of that there's this excuse of tradition and the idea of
So:keeping things simple so that people can understand them.
So:But it's really not super difficult.
So:At the end of the day, the idea that sex is on a spectrum and that gender is
So:independent from sex, these are things that we can teach.
So:And I think it's important to go back to those educational standards and the
So:curriculum to completely reform them, to make them A, up to date, and B inclusive
So:for all the kind of identities that people have and existences that they're living.
So:100%. I'm kind of riding on a high.
So:I feel like I got an A. Just kinda throwing that out there!
So:And I also just want to add, I think it's
So:really interesting, because we've been talking to many people who work in the
So:fields, in any sort, of sex, love and relationships on this podcast.
So:And I feel like I've seen a pretty big thread when it comes to education about...
So:It's actually amazing how much easier it
So:is to teach this stuff to little kids than it is to teach to adults.
So:That's actually the best case when people are like, "well, what age?
So:They really shouldn't be learning about this before a certain age," and it's like,
So:no, that's exactly when they should be learning about it.
So:Yeah. Sorry to cut you off, Bey, whaddya got?
So:No worries. I would actually love for Dr.
So:Wisco to respond to that, maybe, because
So:what age would you recommend talking about sex?
So:Well, I remember I was very nervous talking about sex to even my own kids.
So:And so we decided as a family that the right age to talk about sex to kids was
So:when they were conscious of their own body.
So:So that was very early, for us.
So:Now, that's because you have two parents, one is a clinical anatomist and one is a
So:psychotherapist, that decided that that would be the appropriate time.
So:But we recognize that different parents
So:have a different idea of when that is an appropriate conversation.
So:We don't want to argue with that, but the conversation needs to happen, and I think
So:all three of us would advocate as early as possible to have that conversation.
So:School districts tend to want to control that.
So:We teach anatomy and physiology, nutrition, through Anatomy Academy to
So:elementary school kids, and Anya has taken part of that project.
So:But we don't teach anything about sexual
So:medicine or sexual health because the school districts have asked us
So:purposefully to not do that since they want to control that information.
So:I understand why they want to do that.
So:I get it, because, again, parents have
So:different ideas of when that should be taught.
So:But I think from a research standpoint,
So:earlier is better. And it's not to try to influence anyone.
So:It's so that knowledge is there for the students to consider.
So:And how parents want to help their kids understand that, totally up to them.
So:So that's perfectly understandable.
So:But if we just talk about kids as
So:students, as pre-professional students ,that are learning this information,
So:there's no question that college is too late.
So:There's no question that high school is almost too late, because that has
So:significant ramifications on how people approach this from a career track.
So:I don't know. Anya, if you want to chime in on here,
So:because you and Estefenia have looked at this in terms of how we perceive
So:healthcare, how we perceive sports, and these kinds of frames of mind, and I think
So:you would probably both agree that the education can't happen early enough.
So:I mean, if I can touch on Anatomy Academy as well, I think that'd be great, because
So:as a mentor for Anatomy Academy, first of all, it's a very rewarding
So:experience working with kids and teaching them about human physiology and nutrition,
So:but it's also about trying to incorporate storytelling, and...
So:Really quickly, what is Anatomy Academy?
So:Anatomy Academy is a program that we started at UCLA to inspire kids to adopt
So:healthy lifestyles as an educational way to fight the obesity epidemic.
So:And at the same time, we were trying to
So:provide our medical students at the David Geffen School of Medicine the opportunity
So:to teach complex medical information before they got to the clinics.
And so it's dual:service learning, but
And so it's dual:also an educational intervention program at the same time.
And so it's dual:Since then, we have expanded to a number of states across the country.
And so it's dual:But primarily, our goal is to teach
And so it's dual:anatomy, physiology, and nutrition to help kids adopt healthy lifestyles.
And so it's dual:So we have a seven-week curriculum where we teach different aspects, different
And so it's dual:systems of the body, to help kids understand how their bodies work.
And so it's dual:I mean, of all the things that we educate our kids on, bodies are really important.
And so it's dual:You carry your body throughout your entire lifetime.
And so it's dual:Right? And so knowing how it works, what causes
And so it's dual:it to not work, are things that we try to convey in Anatomy Academy.
And so it's dual:Anya, I want to come back to you.
And so it's dual:Why is it important that there's more interaction and connection between the
And so it's dual:classroom and the lab, especially when it comes to sexual health?
And so it's dual:If I can touch on my research a little bit more with Dr.
And so it's dual:Wisco.
And so it's dual:When we were doing our search for all of the health disparities in pelvic cancer,
And so it's dual:we only got 348 papers that pertain to the topics.
And so it's dual:And if you break down the papers that we found, only 35 were on physician
And so it's dual:education, 22 on LGBTQIA+, 15 on sex and gender, 11 on transgender.
And so it's dual:The numbers just keep getting smaller the more specific you get.
And so it's dual:So I think having a more open conversation, especially for medical
And so it's dual:education, is so important to foster growth and just understanding your
And so it's dual:community that you're going to be working with.
And so it's dual:And this also starts small. Right.
And so it's dual:So just recognizing that when you're
And so it's dual:teaching younger students, you really want to be very inclusive and teaching as well
And so it's dual:in the lab to medical students, it's also important to bring that awareness, the
And so it's dual:self-awareness, that is so important in healthcare that we need today.
And so it's dual:Yes, to all of that.
And so it's dual:Yeah, I think that's an incredible place to kind of close the conversation.
And so it's dual:I want to certainly open it up to any final thoughts from everyone?
And so it's dual:I guess my final thought would be more
And so it's dual:open to getting educated by people that actually know what's going on with the
And so it's dual:literature and having that respect for the people that actually conduct the research.
And so it's dual:I feel like that's something that not only
And so it's dual:this topic has taught us, but also COVID in general, being more open to respecting
And so it's dual:the people that have PhDs, that have MDS, the people that know their stuff.
And so it's dual:So I think that would be my final thought.
And so it's dual:It's a great final thought.
And so it's dual:Don't listen to a comedian and a rapper.
And so it's dual:Yeah, we don't know anything.
And so it's dual:From my perspective, I think it's just really important to remember that sexual
And so it's dual:health is just as important as any other type of health.
And so it's dual:There's a big stigma around it.
And so it's dual:It's very taboo to talk about sexual
And so it's dual:health, but it's super duper important, as much as anything else.
And so it's dual:And the idea that
And so it's dual:it is not a conversation that should be talked about, it should be kept behind
And so it's dual:closed doors, that's not conducive to healthy living.
And so it's dual:If you want to be healthy, you have to respect your body, all parts of it, and
And so it's dual:that means not being shy about your health regardless of where you're talking about.
And so it's dual:Everything that Alex and Estefenia said was great.
And so it's dual:And I just want to add that sexual health is a part of your overall health, like
And so it's dual:Alex said, and it's part of patient centered care, and there is a need for
And so it's dual:inclusive healthcare and integrating more open-minded approaches to medicine.
And so it's dual:Thank you for that.
And so it's dual:And Jonathan, do you have any final thoughts for us?
And so it's dual:First of all, thanks for the opportunity to let us be a group here.
And so it's dual:I love my students and I want to give them
And so it's dual:the opportunity to express their thoughts based on what they've learned.
And so it's dual:And it would have been unfair for me not
And so it's dual:to invite them because they did all the work, so I appreciate that they're here.
And so it's dual:I think my final thought here is that knowledge is incredibly important.
And so it's dual:Knowledge is power. We've heard that, right?
And so it's dual:But what kind of power does it give us?
And so it's dual:Knowledge gives us the power to change systems.
And so it's dual:And when we have incorrect knowledge or even an incorrect perception of that
And so it's dual:knowledge, that can lead down very incorrect pathways.
And so it's dual:And in this context, it can lead to biased
And so it's dual:decisions for even the very people that we trust -- let alone our own perceptions of
And so it's dual:who we are, from a perspective of sex and as a perspective of gender.
And so it's dual:So I think we need more knowledge.
And so it's dual:We don't have enough knowledge on the topic.
And so it's dual:And so I don't blame people for being fearful of wanting to change and wanting
And so it's dual:to be more inclusive, because we simply don't have enough knowledge on the topic.
And so it's dual:But we have an intuition of what should be correct and what should not be correct.
And so it's dual:So we need to find more knowledge.
And so it's dual:But even if we find more knowledge,
And so it's dual:scientifically controlled knowledge that we have gone through a process of, and we
And so it's dual:can trust the information, quick scientific fixes are not the answer.
And so it's dual:We need good studies to find out what is really the truth out there.
And so it's dual:But once we have the truth, it's not
And so it's dual:enough to just say, "this is it." It's really important to have a good,
And so it's dual:welcoming, inclusive space where we can have a difficult conversation, where we
And so it's dual:can have an inviting space and say, "this is how we've grown up to know something,
And so it's dual:but in reality, it's this." And allow people to have the safe space to realize,
And so it's dual:"wow, that's really different!" Even the term
And so it's dual:cisgender and transgender are completely foreign to even my generation.
And so it's dual:We have to acknowledge that this is a difficult thing to talk about and people
And so it's dual:will put up the walls when they feel unsafe in engaging in that conversation.
And so it's dual:So even though we have more knowledge, we
And so it's dual:need to have safe spaces to be able to consider that new knowledge.
And so it's dual:And allow people the opportunity and the choice through that invitation of learning
And so it's dual:something new, to decide for themselves what they're going to do with that.
And so it's dual:I think regardless of where you're at and
And so it's dual:what you believe, we have to allow people the choice to take
And so it's dual:that information and apply it to their own lives.
And so it's dual:And over time, as the knowledge gets
And so it's dual:better, as the conversations get safer, we will change the world in terms of
And so it's dual:understanding because we're all in this together.
And so it's dual:It's not like our bodies are going to go anywhere, right?
And so it's dual:So we need to be able to have safe spaces and conversations for that, to improve the
And so it's dual:health for everybody, not just any one group.
And so it's dual:Beautifully said.
And so it's dual:And talking about sex is definitely hard.
And so it's dual:I couldn't agree more.
And so it's dual:That's why we're doing this with Radio
And so it's dual:Kismet and with Philadelphia's Franklin Institute.
And so it's dual:That's why we're bringing in people like you all who know so much more about it
And so it's dual:than a stand up comic and a rapper who are just excited to hear about it.
And so it's dual:We are so happy you all were here with us.
And so it's dual:Thank you so much for your insight.
And so it's dual:I learned a whole bunch.
And so it's dual:Bey, did you?
And so it's dual:Yeah. And like I said, I got an A, as far as I'm concerned.
And so it's dual:[Laughter]
And so it's dual:Bey passed, yep! Thank you all so much for joining us.
And so it's dual:This was super awesome. Thank you.
And so it's dual:Thank you so much.
And so it's dual:Yeah, so that was a really cool discussion.
And so it's dual:I really appreciate it.
And so it's dual:Just kind of like the nimbleness of the field of study because it's developing and
And so it's dual:everyone's sexual health looks different and functions differently, and then you
And so it's dual:have the access point part of the conversation.
And so it's dual:It was something that just kind of kept me on my toes as a listener.
And so it's dual:Yeah, and I think it's really cool as a
And so it's dual:young woman in her 20s, knowing that these people that we just talked to are the ones
And so it's dual:who are like, going to graduate, going to go into this field and freaking rock it.
And so it's dual:I feel like I have a lot more hope than I did this morning when I woke up.
And so it's dual:So thank you so much to Dr.
And so it's dual:Jonathan Wisco and the crew for being here with us today.
And so it's dual:I think that's all for this episode.
And so it's dual:Yeah. And next week, we're going to look at one of the major factors that influence
And so it's dual:our cultural norms around relationships, which is the media.
And so it's dual:We'll talk about how it shapes our most
And so it's dual:important relationship, which is the one we have with ourselves.
And so it's dual:And also next week, we're going to talk
And so it's dual:about a topic that is very near and dear to my heart, which is why we mourn, laugh,
And so it's dual:cry and smile with our favorite TV characters.
And so it's dual:You're going to get this and more coming
And so it's dual:up next week, so please subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen.
And so it's dual:And I am Kirsten Michelle Cills.
And so it's dual:And I am The Bul Bey.
And so it's dual:Thanks for listening.
And so it's dual:So Curious! is presented by the Franklin Institute.
And so it's dual:And special thanks to the Franklin institute producers Joy Montefusco and Dr.
And so it's dual:Jayatri Das.
And so it's dual:This podcast is produced by Radio Kismet.
And so it's dual:Radio Kismet is Philadelphia's premier podcast production studio.
And so it's dual:The managing producer is Emily Charish.
And so it's dual:The producer is Liliana Green.
And so it's dual:The lead audio engineer and editor is Christian Cedarlund.
And so it's dual:The editors are Lauren DeLuca and Justin Berger.
And so it's dual:Head of operations is Christopher Plant.
And so it's dual:The science writer is Kira Vallette.