WE’RE BACK! In this episode, hosts Kirsten and Bey kick this season off how all podcasts should – by diving deep into the world of frog sex. Biologist Dr. Alex Baugh shares how frogs make mate choices and introduces us to one of his many frog subjects. Later in the episode, we sit down with Franklin Institute’s chief bioscientist, Dr. Jayatri Das, to talk about popular ideas and research in the science world surrounding our first impressions in relationships. Burning question: is gaydar a real thing?
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Learn more about Dr. Jayatri Das
Learn more about Dr. Alex Baugh
Read a transcript of this episode
Transcript
Hello, hello, and welcome to So Curious!
Speaker:I am Kirsten Michelle Cills.
Speaker:And I am the Bul Bey.
Speaker:And we're the hosts of this little fun series.
Speaker:So this is the newest project coming out of the Franklin Institute, which, if you
Speaker:don't know, the Franklin Institute, is a science museum in Philadelphia.
Speaker:And in true Franklin Institute fashion,
Speaker:this series is dedicated to celebrating human sciences and technologies.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:For our last season, Human 2.0, we featured scientists, experts and
Speaker:researchers as they talked all about innovations in biotechnology.
Speaker:For this upcoming season, we're taking things in a new direction.
Speaker:So welcome to So Curious!
Speaker:Season Two.
Speaker:This season is all about love, sex and relationships.
Speaker:My three favorite things. You know what?
Speaker:Let's kick things off by introducing ourselves, Kirsten.
Speaker:All right. Great idea.
Speaker:Hello, I am Kirsten.
Speaker:I am Philly's token terminally ill stand-up comic.
Speaker:I have cystic fibrosis, which is a terminal lung disease.
Speaker:It's genetic.
Speaker:People always think that it sounds really sad when they hear that I'm terminal.
Speaker:They're always like, "oh, my God, you're so brave.
Speaker:I can't even imagine being terminal,"
Speaker:which is so weird to me because in the same way that you can't imagine being
Speaker:terminal, I can't imagine having to care about my credit score.
Speaker:You're so brave.
Speaker:I am born and raised in the City of Brotherly Love.
Speaker:I have been working as an advocate for the cystic fibrosis foundation.
Speaker:I've been doing stand-up comedy for about six years, and I split my time between
Speaker:telling jokes and yelling, "Go, Birds!", unprompted, any chance I get.
Speaker:This season's topic is particularly important to me because between my career
Speaker:as a stand-up comedian and being raised by a mom who was a high school sex ed
Speaker:teacher, I love discussing all things sex, love and relationships.
Speaker:Now, who are you? Hey, what's up?
Speaker:My name is The Bul Bey.
Speaker:You could just call me Bey.
Speaker:I'm Philly's one and only "The Bul
Speaker:Bey," like, you're not going to find anybody else with that name.
Speaker:I'm all over the socials and I make music.
Speaker:Maybe you can actually play a little bit right here.....
Speaker:[music].
Speaker:I'm Philly based. I got some new music out this year.
Speaker:Please check it out. Tell them you support my life [laughter].
Speaker:So now that we have introduced ourselves, let's introduce our season topic.
Speaker:So to break down our season topic, we are going to chat with the chief bioscientist
Speaker:of the Franklin Institute, Dr. Jayatri Das.
Speaker:Welcome to Season Two! Hey, Kirsten.
Speaker:Hey, Bey. Good to be with you.
Speaker:Hey. Hey.
Speaker:So I'm to be talking about this with you guys.
Speaker:I love the fact that you bring comedy and
Speaker:music and some attitude and health to this, but I'm interested in hearing from
Speaker:you why you guys think science has a role in sex, love and relationships.
Speaker:Sex, love and relationships?
Speaker:From a science perspective, I mean, if you break them down, it really breaks down to
Speaker:anatomy, human biology, psychology, human connection.
Speaker:Yeah. I think it would almost be impossible to
Speaker:have a conversation about these things and not discuss science.
Speaker:Even if this were not a Franklin Institute podcast.
Speaker:I love it!
Speaker:That's what we're here to do at the Franklin Institute, is help everybody
Speaker:understand why science matters to our everyday life.
Speaker:And like you mentioned, Kirsten, there's a little bit of everything when you get to
Speaker:sex, love and relationships, and we're going to tackle it all.
Speaker:But I'm a biologist, and so that's kind of where I like to start.
Speaker:We are animals like other animals that are
Speaker:out there trying to make their way in the world and just survive.
Speaker:And so at a certain point, that's just
Speaker:like that fundamental place where we're starting from is that we build
Speaker:relationships with each other, that helps us survive.
Speaker:We reproduce, and, yeah, that involves sex, but also thinking about the fact that
Speaker:those relationships shape how our society works and also our health.
Speaker:And we're going to talk about some of this stuff as we go through this season.
Speaker:So what are some questions that you guys
Speaker:have right off the bat when it comes to the science of love and relationships?
Speaker:Can I get a date?
Speaker:No, it's not a question.
Speaker:I have, I have solved that for myself!
Speaker:So I'm curious.
Speaker:What is happening chemically or
Speaker:biologically or whatever in our bodies when we fall in love?
Speaker:Because I do not know how to define love, but there's got to be a science behind it.
Speaker:Oh, that's a good question, r
Speaker:ight? Because there is definitely a physiological component of how our bodies
Speaker:and brains react chemically and physically.
Speaker:But then how does that influence our broader idea of love?
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Why is a long walk on the beach so romantic? Why is that?
Speaker:Only if you're on horseback. Oh, wow.
Speaker:Have you done that on horseback? That's the rule. No...
Speaker:[laughter]. In slow motion!
Speaker:Yeah. I think one of the cool things is that we
Speaker:have these gut feelings about what relationships should be like, but we live
Speaker:in a world where technology is kind of changing that, too.
Speaker:What is it going to be like in 30 years?
Speaker:Like that show Black Mirror?
Speaker:Can we just find ways to not have to rely
Speaker:on other humans to fall in love or have sex?
Speaker:I think one of the other things that
Speaker:fascinates me is the development of media has really shaped how we perceive
Speaker:relationships and thinking about how does that interact with the biological
Speaker:relationships that we have with each other and how do they influence each other?
Speaker:Like, how are we projecting science on to society?
Speaker:And then how is our social perception of
Speaker:relationships influencing the questions that we ask in science?
Speaker:Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up.
Speaker:There's all kinds of phrasing that we throw around, like Bonnie and Clyde...
Speaker:The Jim to my Pam, the Ross to my Rachel...
Speaker:C'mon now. That one was a little toxic!
Speaker:Yeah, more than a little!
Speaker:If you're so in love with a couple or a person in a show or a movie or a book,
Speaker:that's just what you're looking for moving forward.
Speaker:You're like, I just need someone to do this, shot for shot.
Speaker:I'll just give them the script and they can just reenact it for me.
Speaker:That's what I want. Which is so wild, because if someone's not
Speaker:behaving like a scripted character on screen and looking for that in your real
Speaker:life, interactions can be devastating sometimes.
Speaker:Okay, so we just talked through a whole
Speaker:bunch of questions and now I need some answers.
Speaker:So, Doctor Das, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker:It's been fun. I'm excited to hear all of the amazing
Speaker:guests we're going to have on this season and look forward to being back.
Speaker:So in this season, we are going to be going on a journey to discover how humans
Speaker:love, how they date, how they use relationship technology.
Speaker:But for now, we're going to start off with
Speaker:some behavioral biology that is going to take us deeper into the world of...
Speaker:You guessed it, frog sex!
Speaker:Our first guest is Dr.
Speaker:Alex Baugh. Dr.
Speaker:Alex Baugh is an associate professor of biology at Swarthmore College, where he
Speaker:teaches courses in animal behavior, endocrinology, and evolution.
Speaker:His current research is focused on
Speaker:understanding what drives individual differences in sexual behavior, especially
Speaker:mate choosiness. Alex primarily studies frogs.
Speaker:Dr. Alex Baugh, welcome to So Curious!
Speaker:If you were to explain what you do and your research to a five-year-old, or in
Speaker:this case, a comedian and a rapper, what would you say about it?
Speaker:Yeah, that's interesting because in your
Speaker:professions, creativity and improvisation is obviously so key.
Speaker:And I think about my research and how I would describe that to a kindergartner.
Speaker:It is the outcome of being curious about the natural world, looking for insight
Speaker:about the way the world works by watching it very carefully.
Speaker:And this is something that five-year-olds get.
Speaker:Humans at that age especially, are just natural, experimental people.
Speaker:Can you explain what "sexual communication" means?
Speaker:So, most of what you hear, see, and smell in animals, in the natural world, and in
Speaker:fact, even in plants, most of that is sexual communication.
Speaker:At the end of the day, Darwinian fitness
Speaker:cares about how many offspring you produce.
Speaker:That for sexually reproducing animals is
Speaker:now going to hinge on your success in finding a mate and producing offspring.
Speaker:And so much of what the natural world is
Speaker:all about is perpetuating that genetic lineage.
Speaker:And that comes down, in a lot of animals , to effectively communicating, getting
Speaker:the signal out there for what species you are, for what sex you are, for your sexual
Speaker:readiness, for any resources that you hold that might entice a chooser to choose you.
Speaker:And so that's at the very center of biology.
Speaker:In fact, it's really hard not to teach even a single lecture in biology and not
Speaker:have that framing -- it's so central to everything that lives.
Speaker:In most cases, this is typically one sex,
Speaker:often males, that are producing signals that emanate, typically, long-distance
Speaker:signals, to attract members of the opposite sex.
Speaker:And it is typically the case that that
Speaker:opposite sex is the female and that female is the chooser.
So we've got courters:those are most
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:those are most often females.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Those sexual signals, those are playing
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:this really critical role in making that bond possible.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:So there's just an enormous amount to study in that domain.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Can you talk about where you are?
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:You are sitting in a "frog chamber?" What is that?
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:What is a frog chamber?
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:What goes on in the frog chamber?
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Yeah, that sounds a little risky.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:I'm sitting in what is kind of equivalent to a nice studio recording room.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:But this is not for humans, it's for frogs.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:And this is a space that we think of as a predictable sound field.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:We can play back sound through speakers from outside of the chamber.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:We can control those sounds very carefully.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:And those speakers are now stand-ins for males.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Then we put a reproductive female in the
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:chamber and we ask her to tell us, what is your preference?
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:What do you like?
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:I'll introduce you to the star of the show here.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:What? We're going to see a frog?
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:This is a pair of amplectant gray tree frogs, Hyla chrysoscelis.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:The male is on the back of the female here.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:I'm going to take the male off of the female's back.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:I'm going to put him in a separate little bin with water.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:I had no idea there were frogs on deck.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:That's so cool.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:We're going to see if he'll give us an advertisement call here in a second.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:[frog croaking sound]
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Wow, that was fire!
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:That was pretty aggressive too.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:We are currently seeing well, it was the two frogs, and now the male frog is in his
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:own body of water and that's when he starts making those noises.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Is that correct? Yeah.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:He just did it again!
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:They were so tiny.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Oh my gosh.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Do you have a bunch of frogs with you right now?
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:We actually do.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:We've got, I think, 100 pairs of frogs from last night.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:And I know this is your business, so you're just so used to it, but if I were
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:in that room, I'd feel like, "I need to play with every frog." That's so cool
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:that you're just able to do this interview with all these frogs around you.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:How many career paths can say that, right?
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Yeah, I think I'm in a rare case where this is what I get paid to do, right?
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Study frog sex and sexual hearing.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Tell me what you did last night.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:I got to know. It's Minnesota.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:It's the land of lakes.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:There's swamps and lakes and ponds everywhere.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:And if you just step outside this time of
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:year, in this case I was in a suburb of St.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Paul, there's a pond with 1000 plus frogs
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:calling from around 09:00 p.m. 'til around 01:00 a.m. And they're all doing their
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:best to get a mate, and probably around 5% of them will.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Wow. Wow.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:That is low statistics.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Wow. Yeah.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Frog chorus...
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Is this behavior that's done in groups?
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Do we have frog choirs?
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Great question.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:We use that language to describe it
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:because phenomenologically, that's exactly what it is.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Males are not only gathering in the swamp
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:together in dense aggregations and producing vocalizations and vocalizing in
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:a way that is sensitive to the presence of others.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Right.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:So a given male is going to up his game when he's next to another hotshot, sexy
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:male, and he's going to minimize call overlap.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:They don't want to be talking over each
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:other because that makes it harder for any listeners, any females in the arena, to
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:identify, localize, and then select one of those males.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:There is an emergent property here of a
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:chorus, but at the end of the day they're in competition with each other.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:But it is an interesting case study in
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:biology where you've got individual males, in their own interest producing these
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:costly vocalizations to attract females, but they're gathering in groups to do it.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:And in fact, the larger the group that
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:they're in, of males, the better their likelihood of attracting a female.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:There's a disproportionate increase in
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:attracting females with larger choruses of males.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:So in a sense there is kind of a cooperative element there, even though
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:they're all acting in their own self-interest.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Is there a human version of a frog course that we might be familiar with?
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Well, this is the sexual marketplace for frogs, so I'm not sure what that sexual
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:marketplace is for humans, but I think it's online.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Okay. If I were to think about what would be the
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:human equivalent of a frog chorus living in South Philadelphia where I live, I'm
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:thinking like catcalling, people kind of yelling out of their cars,
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:or yelling when you're walking down the street.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Yeah, and I was thinking a bar.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Yeah, or a bar!
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:How do animals make decisions when it comes to mating?
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:What is like the big sell?
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:For most animals on planet Earth, most
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:males of most species never get to have sex.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:As humans, we're very human-centric in our thinking and that strikes us as unusual.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:But this is the norm for most animals.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:And so the name of the game for males of most species is quantity over quality.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:It is, reproduce with as many mates as possible and leave the rearing of
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:offspring and the gestation, et cetera, to the females.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:All the investment in the reproductive effort really is on the female side.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:And in frogs, and the reason why I'm sitting in a frog chamber and studying
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:frogs and studying acoustic mate choice, is because it offers really an
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:unparalleled opportunity to evaluate that question you just asked.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Females in a lot of animals, especially
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:frogs and toads, are the sex that gets to choose.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:They control 100% of the mate choice process.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Males, like I said, they'll accept any
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:female, including females of other species.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:That's the nature of the male equation.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Females, on the other hand, are very picky.
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:Right. They're very choosy and their preferences
often males; and choosers:
Speaker:are often very strong for certain features of a sexual
communication signal:features that guarantee species identity, for example.
communication signal:The worst thing a female can do is select a male of another species.
communication signal:Can animals make first impressions?
communication signal:And if so, are there similarities between that experience of encountering someone
communication signal:for the first time that humans have to animals?
communication signal:In the case of frogs, I'm going to be frog -centric here, the first impression... i
communication signal:t's always a first impression, and this is another reason for studying them.
communication signal:They don't have much of a short-term memory, maybe 45 seconds or a minute.
communication signal:And so every time the male calls [makes burrrrrr- sound],
communication signal:she's processing that call, she's counting the number of pulses in it, she's
communication signal:listening for the intensity of it, for the different frequencies that are in i, to
communication signal:make sure it's the right species, the right sex, that it's an attractive male.
communication signal:But she quickly forgets.
communication signal:The female that has a very short time horizon for finding a mate, and the
communication signal:absence of finding a mate is going to forfeit her entire fitness, she's going to
communication signal:drop those eggs one way or the other -- with a male on her back, or without.
communication signal:Wow, that's a huge fitness cost.
communication signal:This may be her only clutch of eggs in her lifetime.
communication signal:And so she does need to find a mate.
communication signal:And as that clock keeps ticking,
communication signal:she's going to forfeit some of her preferences in order to just find a mate.
communication signal:That's something that came out.
communication signal:This is frog research we're talking about.
communication signal:But this really was inspired, I think,
communication signal:first by a famous country-western singer who wrote, "don't all the girls get
communication signal:prettier at closing time?" We call this the closing time effect.
communication signal:And it's true in humans, it's true in frogs.
communication signal:Well, I think it's interesting about you're saying at a certain point the
communication signal:females have to settle because they are running out of time.
communication signal:Right. Because with humans it's different.
communication signal:Right.
communication signal:The female frog can't just like, freeze her eggs while she pursues her career.
communication signal:Right. That's just not how it works.
communication signal:Especially if you're forgetting every 45 seconds!
communication signal:Right! How can you pursue a career if you keep forgetting?
communication signal:Right, yeah.
communication signal:It's a real Finding Dory situation in that sense.
communication signal:I love it. How does all this inform us?
communication signal:Yeah. And what can animals tell us about how
communication signal:sexual communication of humans has evolved?
communication signal:It kind of goes back to a topic we touched earlier.
communication signal:In your careers, right, so creativity and
communication signal:expression, a lot of creative pursuits in humans center on novelty.
communication signal:If you're just doing the same thing over and over and over again, you're just not
communication signal:going to get much of an audience interested.
communication signal:And that's true in animals, too.
communication signal:We see that mostly over evolutionary time.
communication signal:We see novelty and ingenuity and
communication signal:innovation generated through this process of biological evolution.
communication signal:And we can tap into the mind of a
communication signal:receiver, which is really the agent of selection here.
communication signal:In the case of the female frogs, it's the
communication signal:female auditory system that has the preferences that it has, which then
communication signal:generates selection on certain male traits.
communication signal:Longer, louder, more frequent calls, in this case.
communication signal:But I would say that one of the lessons
communication signal:from the animal world is you do want to stand out.
communication signal:The male that is going to, over and over
communication signal:again, have more success than his peers, is going to be the male who shows up at
communication signal:the chorus pond every single night and tries his hardest.
communication signal:So showing up, rule number one.
communication signal:Rule number two, you need to stand out.
communication signal:You need to make that call louder and
communication signal:longer, and you need to be in the right place in the chorus, in the very center of
communication signal:the chorus where the competition is highest.
communication signal:So there are a few lessons there.
communication signal:I think novelty is worth thinking about though, right?
communication signal:I mean, this is something we're so focused on as humans, is just being different.
communication signal:As Americans especially.
communication signal:It is so interesting how everything you're saying is such an innately, universally
communication signal:human experience, but it goes so much further in nature.
communication signal:I couldn't agree more.
communication signal:Something I kind of got out of it in your last comments, Alex, was it seemed like
communication signal:what we can get from this is a stronger sense of empathy.
communication signal:We have to put ourselves in the receiver's position.
communication signal:I think understanding that it is the
communication signal:receiver, the chooser', mind that at the end of the day is driving everything.
communication signal:It's driving the evolution of the signals
communication signal:and it's driving your potential at finding a mate and bonding.
communication signal:Yeah, I think your point about empathy is
communication signal:a really good one and taking a listener-centric perspective here and
communication signal:learning from the frogs is a worthwhile one.
communication signal:Because at the end of the day, when we're
communication signal:talking about humans, we're talking about social primates that bond for long periods
communication signal:of time, and that's not the case for the frogs.
communication signal:Every night is a new potential mating opportunity, but for most humans, most of
communication signal:the time, those trysts are a little bit longer in duration.
communication signal:And the essence of intimacy is understanding your partner.
communication signal:And that means listening.
communication signal:And so if I can take one tip from the
communication signal:frogs and listening carefully to the frogs and impart it in my own personal life, my
communication signal:own human life, it's listening carefully and understanding the people in your life
communication signal:because that's a connection that will pay dividends for a lifetime.
communication signal:Wow. Amazing. Thank you so much, Alex Baugh!
communication signal:Thank you. This has been so interesting.
communication signal:Incredible, truly. Wow.
communication signal:Of course. Yeah.
communication signal:It was great to chat with you guys.
communication signal:Thanks so much to Alex.
communication signal:Wow. Okay, so that was a lot.
communication signal:It makes me think how we make decisions about how we choose to date.
communication signal:Like, what things do we
communication signal:notice first, second, third, and all those different things.
communication signal:What things do we take into consideration?
communication signal:What are some factors for you when you choose who you're going to date?
communication signal:Well, certainly they need to have a choir, of course, of repetitive vocalized noises.
communication signal:Honestly, good conversation.
communication signal:That just answers the question earnestly and honestly.
communication signal:Good conversation is what I look for and decent, manners, I guess.
communication signal:Just decent manners.
communication signal:I mean, if you fart, just say, Excuse me.
communication signal:That's pretty much it.
communication signal:I like your standards, Bey.
communication signal:What are some factors for you? Thank you for asking.
communication signal:So, let's see.
communication signal:Obviously, like you said, yeah, if you're
communication signal:not organizing a song for me, you can hit the road.
communication signal:But other than that, I would say... I'm a comedian.
communication signal:So obviously, if you can't make me laugh, I'm bored just thinking about it.
communication signal:And obviously, if you happen to have a thing for girls on oxygen, like, that's a
communication signal:plus, you know, not a requirement, but it always seems to work out well.
communication signal:And if they are an Eagles fan. Go Birds.
communication signal:Yeah. Go Birds.
communication signal:Hear, hear.
communication signal:Well, I think this leads us into our next segment: Body of Knowledge.
communication signal:For this segment, we are going to be bringing back Dr. Jayatri Da
communication signal:s, our favorite bioscientist, to talk about popular ideas in the science world
communication signal:surrounding our first impressions of relationships.
communication signal:Welcome back, Jayatri. Hey, Bey.
communication signal:Hey, Kirsten. How are you?
communication signal:Can you share some insights from the world of science about first impressions?
communication signal:I am going to turn the question around to you first.
communication signal:Because I want to ask you what are the kinds of things that you think you notice
communication signal:about other people when you just meet them for the first time?
communication signal:Something that pops out to me is height.
communication signal:If someone's like, extremely tall or short, that kind of pops out to me.
communication signal:As a short person, I totally respect that. Right.
communication signal:Although I kind of feel like, you go above my eye level and everybody's tall.
communication signal:Yes.
communication signal:I think silhouette mostly is what I'm trying to get at.
communication signal:The silhouette of a person is something that kind of pops out.
communication signal:As you get closer and closer and closer, you start to get into the details.
communication signal:Eyes, nose, hair, clothing, how they dress.
communication signal:These are the things that I see.
communication signal:What about you, Kirsten?
communication signal:So is it also in terms of when we speak to them?
communication signal:Sure, yeah.
communication signal:I always notice confidence.
communication signal:I notice if people make eye contact, if
communication signal:they're playing with their hands, if they're looking at me straight on.
communication signal:I notice people's sense of humor.
communication signal:I notice vocabulary.
communication signal:I am a very word-oriented person, I'm gathering right now.
communication signal:I also am very insecure about my own
communication signal:teeth, so I love when I see people with perfect teeth.
communication signal:That's one of the first things I notice physically.
communication signal:I love the fact that both of you are so perceptive about slightly different
communication signal:things, but it's such a human reaction to do that.
communication signal:And part of it is because when we're
communication signal:interacting with the world around us, there's so much information to process
communication signal:that our brains automatically jump to shortcuts.
communication signal:Right? This is just a way that our brain works.
communication signal:It's not necessarily good or bad.
communication signal:It's just the way it is, because it's a way that we can immediately process
communication signal:things and people that we're interacting with.
communication signal:And so when we think about it from an
communication signal:evolutionary point of view, it's been helpful in our survival because we want to
communication signal:be able to look at somebody and know whether they are a friend or foe.
communication signal:But some of that takes a different twist in our modern society.
communication signal:Along with some of the characteristics
communication signal:that you mentioned, some of the obvious things that people notice -- age, race,
communication signal:sex -- these are things that are easy to spot visually and we can also think about
communication signal:how they lead to bias and prejudice and things like that.
communication signal:But they're also quick cues to find commonalities with other people as well.
communication signal:Are some of these impressions, like, subconscious like things you're responding
communication signal:to that you are just not aware that maybe you have a sensitivity toward?
communication signal:For sure. And one of the things that I found
communication signal:interesting as I was looking at some of the evidence behind this is that even
communication signal:things like religious beliefs, political affiliation and sexual orientation --these
communication signal:are things that are not quite as obvious as, say, age, race or sex.
communication signal:But there are still cues that come across in how we present ourselves that we can
communication signal:pick up on in some really more subtle ways.
communication signal:Yeah, I think what I find interesting is
communication signal:sometimes I'll get an impression of somebody without seeing them.
communication signal:They're like, "Hey, my friend's coming over.
communication signal:They're from California." And I already kind of like, start crafting...
communication signal:You picture Matthew McConaughey coming over immediately, right?
communication signal:Totally. Yeah.
communication signal:But that happens a lot. Like you know, oh,
communication signal:"my friend is coming over, they're really into anime."
communication signal:And you just kind of start going to those cultural touchpoints of what that person
communication signal:might look like, talk like, walk like, all these different things.
communication signal:And I don't necessarily conclude on
communication signal:whether or not I dislike them or like them, but I certainly get an impression
communication signal:based off of a word that somebody might say about them.
communication signal:A description, an adjective.
communication signal:That's a really good point that you bring up, Bay, because when we think about how
communication signal:we perceive each other, it's a two way street.
communication signal:There's the way that a person presents to
communication signal:the outside world but there's also all of the experiences that we are bringing as
communication signal:the perceiver to make these kinds of assumptions and
communication signal:judgments based on the information that we look at.
communication signal:So I'm curious...from a science
communication signal:standpoint, Jayatri, I know something I had shared with Bey (off mic) was, because
communication signal:I'm always wearing Converse and my leather jacket at all times, people can usually
communication signal:tell I'm bisexual without me ever saying anything.
communication signal:And I don't know where that comes from.
communication signal:People are always like, "you just have that bisexual energy, just aesthetically."
communication signal:And so I'm curious, is there any science to back up gaydar?
communication signal:There is something to it.
communication signal:)Is there gaydar? Actually?
communication signal:Yeah, we're going to come back t o the black leather jacket.
communication signal:So I should preface some of the research
communication signal:around this by saying that a lot of it is done in laboratory conditions.
communication signal:And so there are a lot of questions about how these results actually translate to
communication signal:what it means for people living their lives.
communication signal:So with that caveat in mind, however, some of the experimental work that's been
communication signal:done has been to kind of dissect some of these cues, Kirsten, that you bring up.
communication signal:So Nicholas Rule is a social psychologist at the University of Toronto who's done a
communication signal:really nice analysis of the body of literature around this, and he categorizes
communication signal:the types of cues that we pick up for gaydar in these four categories:
communication signal:adornment, acoustics, actions, and appearance.
communication signal:So let's break that down real quick.
communication signal:Yeah, that sounds interesting.
communication signal:So let's start with adornment, because
communication signal:that's where we get to your black leather jacket and the Converse.
communication signal:And my nose ring. Yeah.
communication signal:[laughter]
communication signal:What's the clothing?
communication signal:What are the symbols?
communication signal:How do we do our hair or use cosmetics?
communication signal:These are ways that we communicate,
communication signal:intentionally or unintentionally, information about our sexual orientation.
communication signal:When you think about acoustics, there are differences in speech patterns
communication signal:that are hard to kind of pin down what the precise acoustic parameters are there, but
communication signal:they are pretty reliably distinct, again, between heterosexual and homosexual.
communication signal:When we think about actions, it's about body movement, walking style.
communication signal:This one was really fascinating to me
communication signal:because we actually have an exhibit about this at the Franklin Institute, not
communication signal:specifically around sexual orientation, but the fact that
communication signal:if you model how somebody walks using just points of light that represent all of the
communication signal:major joints on your body -- so, like your knees, your elbows, your hips --
communication signal:you can tell from that body language, just from those points of light, that whether
communication signal:somebody is friendly or unfriendly, or whether somebody is happy or sad.
communication signal:And you can imagine this in your head, right?
communication signal:Well, it turns out that there is information, looking at that type of
communication signal:analysis, that can give you cues about whether somebody is gay or straight.
communication signal:Wow. Mind blown.
communication signal:Mind blown. Successfully.
communication signal:Mind blown. So that's actions.
communication signal:And the last one is appearances.
communication signal:And while there are some theories about
communication signal:how hormone development might lead to differences in height or body structure,
communication signal:the richest area of information is the face.
communication signal:And what's fascinating here is that
communication signal:people are more accurate than random when they are asked to look at a face and
communication signal:classify somebody as either gay or straight.
communication signal:And it doesn't get any more accurate the longer you think about it.
communication signal:So it's really that snap judgment
communication signal:that suggests, again, that there's some sort of very automatic processing that
communication signal:we're doing about people with just looking at a flash of their face.
communication signal:So it's gut reaction.
communication signal:I like that, for sure.
communication signal:Getting back to the caveat that I started out with, that these are very laboratory-
communication signal:based experiments, the other interesting thing is that a lot of these experiments
communication signal:are done as kind of a binary choice as gay or straight, homosexual or heterosexual.
communication signal:And those lines get blurred when you start
communication signal:looking at the spectrum of gender identity and sexuality in between.
communication signal:So there's a lot that we don't understand about how we're processing these things.
communication signal:And I think it's a really exciting area of research.
communication signal:Which is why we're having these conversations!
communication signal:Yeah, that is so exciting.
communication signal:Okay, so we're going to switch gears to
communication signal:part two of Body of Knowledge, and we are going to take to the Internet.
communication signal:So we need to find out what are people asking Google about first impressions?
communication signal:So we typed in "my first impression of...(blank)," and Google autofilled it to
communication signal:,"my first impression of her was not good."
communication signal:Ouch.
communication signal:I know.
communication signal:I wonder if her first impression of him was good.
communication signal:They seemed like they didn't like each other.
communication signal:I'm just going to throw that out there. And moving on.
communication signal:We typed in, "what do first impressions..."
communication signal:And it autofilled, "say about you?" What do first impressions say about you?
communication signal:Yeah, that kind of gets back to what we
communication signal:were talking about in terms of it being bi -directional, that there's the choices
communication signal:-- both conscious and subconscious, I guess -- of the cues that you project.
communication signal:But it also depends on who's getting that first impression of you.
communication signal:I was going to say, is it like the first
communication signal:impression that you make that says something about you, or the first
communication signal:impression that is made about you that says something about you?
communication signal:I guess both. I don't know.
communication signal:And then we searched just the word
communication signal:, "gaydar," to see what Google would autofill.
communication signal:So we typed in "gaydar," and it was aut
communication signal:ofilled to "gaydar for sale." Is there anybody selling gaydar online?
communication signal:Facebook marketplace?
communication signal:I feel like that's one of these potential applications of technology that has some
communication signal:serious ethical considerations, that we should be thinking about.
communication signal:I don't think it exists yet, but...
communication signal:Yeah, if you do have access to a
communication signal:gaydar machine, just please email emily@radio.
communication signal:...I'm just kidding.
communication signal:Yeah. Gaydar for sale.
communication signal:Who's to say?
communication signal:Well, what is interesting is that you tend to be more accurate and have a stronger
communication signal:memory for faces that match your own identity.
communication signal:So if you're gay, then you're better at
communication signal:recognizing faces of other people who are gay.
communication signal:If you're straight, vice versa.
communication signal:If you are American, you're better at recognizing other Americans.
communication signal:If you're Spanish or Japanese, you're
communication signal:better at recognizing people who are Spanish or Japanese.
communication signal:Yeah, that fully tracks.
communication signal:I fully agree with that.
communication signal:So it shows us how these first impressions do help us find our community.
communication signal:So like an automatic kinship, almost.
communication signal:Yeah, potentially.
communication signal:Interesting.
communication signal:Well, that was amazing.
communication signal:I really believe that that was amazing.
communication signal:Thanks so much to Jayatri and to Alex for
communication signal:being on our first episode for this season.
communication signal:We are so excited, genuinely, for all of
communication signal:these dope conversations that we have in store because they gonna rock.
communication signal:We will be releasing episodes every Tuesday this summer, so subscribe to this
communication signal:channel to hear our episode next week, which is going to be all about AI.
communication signal:AI?
communication signal:Sex toys, storing your data, remembering your preferences?
communication signal:Are instagram couples actually happy? Are they?
communication signal:I don't know. This and more on next week's episode.
communication signal:So Curious is presented by the Franklin Institute.
communication signal:And special thanks to the Franklin Institute producers Joy Montefusco and Dr.
communication signal:Jayatri Das.
communication signal:This podcast is produced by Radio Kismet.
communication signal:Radio Kismet is Philadelphia's premiere podcast production studio.
communication signal:The managing producer is Emily Charish, the producer is Liliana Green.
communication signal:The lead audio engineer and editor is Christian Cedarlund.
communication signal:Head of operations is Christopher Plant.
communication signal:And the editors are Lauren DeLuca and Justin Berger.
communication signal:The science writer is Kira Vallette.
communication signal:And the graphic designer is Emma Sager.
communication signal:And I am Kirsten Michelle Cills.
communication signal:And I'm The Bul Bey. Go Science!
communication signal:Go Birds! And we'll see you next week.
