EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Content may be slightly edited for clarity.
Bey
Hello and welcome to So Curious!, presented by the Franklin Institute.
Angelica
In this season, Human 2.0, we will be talking to scientists and non-scientists alike about technology, innovation, and the human experience. We’re your hosts. I’m Angelica Pasquini.
Bey
And I’m the Bul Bey. But you could just call me Bey.
Angelica
On today’s episode, we’re going to be talking about biohacking with bioengineer Ricky Solorzano and physique athlete Scott Shunk. Hacking the human experience is so funny to me, inherently, just the concept, it’s comical. I mean, I guess it’s been happening forever. People are like, “how do I..alright I’ve been doing this, this one way..?” It’s human nature to want to figure out a faster route from A to B. That’s what I always think about with hacking. How can I more quickly get what I want? Isn’t that a classic question?
Bey
Yeah. I think we all want to try to get to our destinations. And I think some of the people we’ll be talking to, and some people in the world, I think they revel in the process and they are just trying to really make it as efficient… I think they have a bit of a long-term perspective, a long game at play. But yeah, we all want to cut those corners and be efficient. So, Angelica, what do you think biohacking is?
Angelica
It’s a huge umbrella term.
Bey
Yeah.
Angelica
Let’s just start with the most far-out one that scares everyone for fun. So it’s that people turn themselves into cyborgs by embedding magnets, chips, computers, under their skin. So it’s like people who want to put a little chip in their hand and then wave their hand across something and then get accessibility into a door. That’s biohacking. Now, that’s a no for me, dog. But I also think biohacking can be as simple as making bread by using cells to do so. I know that that’s like a growing field in biohacking and then obviously biohacking your body, biohacking your sleep. In meditation, people are using these devices now that can actually show you when your nervous system is the calmest. And then that way you are in a sort of like a Theta space so that you could have a deeper meditation.
Bey
Yes. And I know we’re going to be talking to people in the active athletic space. I’ve been in gyms and I’ve seen people sniff something right before they lift a piece of weight. And I’m like, I don’t know what that is. Is that some kind of like chemical accelerant or something like that? What is it?
Angelica
If I saw somebody with a bunch of weight in front of them and they had to put something up their nose in order to lift it up, I would assume… This isn’t something you need to do. This isn’t something that you need to do!
Bey
Right.
Angelica
Because if you have to sniff something up your nose, carry a bunch of weight around, just go do something that your body wants to do instead.
Bey
Right.
Angelica
That’s my opinion.
Bey
Try the treadmill, maybe.
Angelica
Yeah. The elliptical…
Bey
We’ve got a great lineup for today’s episode. So let’s kick off things with our first guest. Our first guest is Scott Shunk. Scott Schunk is a physique athlete and a model. Scott has perfected his own body down to a science and helps others do the same as a fitness and nutrition guru, and creator of Body Cult Fitness. Before committing himself to his body full-time, Scott worked as a consultant and was director of the Visualizing Cultures Project at MIT. Hi, Scott, can you introduce yourself?
Scott Shunk
Hi, I’m Scott Shunk. I’m sort of a fitness and wellness guy, a bit of an Instagram and social media presence. And what I do is help people stay youthful and invigorated in their lives.
Angelica
So we want to ask you about your bodybuilding journey. If you just want to give us a synopsis of your story.
Scott Shunk
I’ve always been sort of fascinated by fitness and physique training, aesthetics in terms of bodybuilding and modeling, and these types of things. And I saw this series of photos called “Fred With Tires” that Herb Ritts had done. Simultaneously, that was when the Calvin Klein first underwear ad came out, the classic 80s underwear ad. What really was interesting in the 80s was gay men really sort of embraced the body and the physique that I found to be most fascinating. So growing up and seeing all these sorts of these incredibly fit young men in Greenwich Village, along with the photographic and artistic representations that Herb Ritts had done, and then the modeling, what was working in advertising, it really led me at age 13, 14 to know what I wanted to do. And then I began my actual fitness journey at about 20. And let me see, I would have been 20 in 1988. And from there, it’s been 34, 35 years of fitness: trying to understand supplementation, different workout regimens and routines, really being open and teachable to a lot of different things, doing a lot of research myself and just enmeshing myself in the culture and embracing it fully. Sort of what fitness is, and for me as a model (and an old dude model)…
Angelica
I love that term, “old dude model.”
Bey
Put it on LinkedIn!
Scott Shunk
Really looking, keeping my skin really well put together. My skin is kind of one of my brands out in the modeling world because I have just a very youthful-looking appearance and skin for a guy my age.
Angelica
For sure! It’s cool to hear. So essentially, like when you were a young kid, you had this artistic vision. And even I looked up “Fred With Tires.” It’s a beautiful series, and the photography is incredible. So it’s like an artistic standpoint that you’re coming from.
Scott Shunk
Absolutely. And that’s why when people say “bodybuilder,” I embraced that term because I’m a bodybuilder. But that also is really more associated with these big giant guys that are running a lot of performance-enhancing drugs. It’s a different aesthetic. I’ve always stayed completely natural. I’ve never used performance-enhancing drugs, hormones, what have you. I call what I do, I think I’m a “physique athlete” or an “aesthetic athlete.”
Bey
Right. And Scott, you used to be a research director at MIT, but now you’re a physique athlete, as you said, a fitness and nutrition coach and a model. These seem like two different worlds. What prompted you to make this change, and do you find any connections between your previous career and what you do now?
Scott Shunk
Well, certainly the research component at MIT. I always worked in media growing up, and what I did at MIT was to direct a very large-scale media project at the Institute. Again, physical aesthetics, physique, has always been something I’ve done since my 20s when I, through a series of life changes, ended up in Houston. The joke that I always tell people is I met a guy at a gala, a billionaire, and he was like, “what are you bringing in?” He said, [fake Texas accent] “well, son, you can either be smart or pretty here, but you can’t be both.” I guess I chose pretty for the second half of my life. [laughter]
Bey
Oh my God, thank you for that. And the accent. Appreciate that.
Scott Shunk
Doing the best I can.
Angelica
What kind of research did you do to start exploring this? And how did you find the practices that work for you? What advice would you give someone who’s starting to train and has a vision for themselves, sort of like what you do?
Scott Shunk
Like anything in life, there’s sort of a core series of tenants that will work for everyone in terms of embracing a fitness journey. And there are really three tenants to what we do in the sport. It’s training, nutrition, and recovery. So what I did initially was, like most kids, I’m 18, 20 years old when I started, and that was in the 80s and early 90s. And we had supplements like Brewer’s yeast and amino acids, kind of hinky, (“hinky,” meaning nonsense) kind of supplements: Gainers Fuel, just tons of like basically coffee creamer and rice carbohydrates in a powder form of protein.
Bey
[sarcastic] Sounds fun.
Scott Shunk
So again, it was the beginning of understanding how do I enhance what I’m doing in the gym with my nutrition, and then the supplementation components and reading a ton of stuff, getting all the bodybuilding magazines that were available then, and just trying to understand as much as I could about what was I to do, how do I train? And it just takes a long time to do that. And everyone, when they begin their journey, no matter what age when I’m taking someone in, I’m showing a lot of shortcuts and a lot of shorthand to get the results a lot more quickly and rapidly. But a lot of it is just really doing the work, getting in the gym, doing basic, straightforward, simple but effective exercises. You are eating a lot of lean protein. That’s chicken, that’s egg whites, that’s some protein powders, lean cuts of red meat. If that’s something you do. I don’t eat a lot of red meat. You eat a lot of vegetables, clean vegetables, like sort of just raw. I eat a lot of raw broccoli, Brussels sprouts, beans, green beans, these kinds of things. And I don’t eat many carbohydrates at all.
Scott Shunk
That’s kind of where guys like me live. That’s clean eating. That means you’re not eating processed foods. You’re not having a cheat meal once a week. There’s no alcohol. There’s a lot of restriction. It’s a lot of misery.
Angelica
And so can the human body be hacked? Are there concrete methods to gain concrete results in what you’re doing?
Scott Shunk
Absolutely. There are a myriad of shortcuts and sort of keys to the…I call it the keys to the kingdom. And it really has a lot to do with food timing. This game is all about hormones. And for a guy like me who’s completely natural in my 50s, still not using any even hormone replacement therapy because that’s… Guys around 35, 37 start going to the testosterone clinics and start just getting injectable testosterone. But I just game my hormones to keep my testosterone levels as high as possible. My cortisol levels as low as possible. My insulin, which is kind of the biggest hormone in the game, the most sensitive that I can, all the time. And I do that by sleeping eight to nine hours every day, by not having an incredibly stressed-out life, which drives my ex-wife to madness. And the way I eat. And I also use intermittent fasting. And I have almost for 35 years, I do intermittent fasting.
Angelica
It’s interesting what you’re saying because you’re so aware of everything going on with your mind and body. It is a science and a lifestyle. And earlier I said like a work of art, it seems like your life is your work of art that you’re curating. I’m very curious about endorphins, working out, your mood. And are you happy?
Scott Shunk
There are days it’s absolute misery to get through it. If I’m doing a 72-hour fast and I will do a 72-hour fast almost monthly. And there’s a lot of reasons I do that. Autophagy is a term we throw around. Immunological resets. Also really just kind of cleaning my body up. But on those 72 hours, I can get pretty miserable. On days that I’m cutting in for a shoot…. I just got back from Mexico on Tuesday and I had to cut in for a shoot. My Thanksgiving was chicken and broccoli, where everyone else is sitting there hammering pie. And I love pie! So there are days when you’re hormonally gamed, you’re beat up, and what you have to work through, or what I tell myself when I’m working with someone… I’m like, you need to kind of muscle through that. You need to move through that stuff. You accept it. You sort of put it where it needs to be. But you know that you are going for a longer result. I sit around 185 pounds. I’m six foot one. That’s kind of my happy weight. I can go down to 181 when I want to be ridiculously, 2% body fat, lean. And I can go up to 190 and fluff up and be really buff and still have pretty abs. But for about three months a year I like to go up to about 200 to 210 pounds. That really gives my body and my mind the break, and it allows me to restart the process of chipping away at the “David.” Chipping the David out.
Bey
I love that.
Angelica
The artist is present.
Scott Shunk
As you say, it is exactly that. It is a science and it is an art. There is no one way that anyone gets to the place they need to get to, and that’s why the journey takes …It should be enjoyed and should be looked at as a lifelong process. I learned things every year that I didn’t know the year previously. I’m in better shape today than I was at 50, than I absolutely was at 35. I’ve always been lean. I’ve always been pretty ripped, other than the year my first child was born, but I’ve always kind of kept it together. So I learned something every year. And now as I age, it’s a game of hormones.
Bey
I love that you mentioned that. It looks different for everybody and everybody on their own journey individually, how do you use biohacking for your training, and in your opinion, what works and what doesn’t work?
Scott Shunk
The best piece of advice I can offer most people is intermittent fasting is the real deal. Biohacking is a new term. When I was at MIT, we called it life extension, but none of this stuff is new. So the biggest thing I can recommend in terms of a biohack for anyone is to really experiment with intermittent fasting. Start fasting at least 12 hours every day. Have your last meal at seven or whatever, and then don’t eat again until seven or eight the next day. That’s an easy thing to do for most people. The most important hormone you’re going to play with in your body is your insulin. So what I always preach to people is insulin sensitivity. We want our insulin sensitivity as high as possible.
Bey
Why is insulin the most important hormone in the body? Why is insulin the most important?
Scott Shunk
No, that’s an opinion. There, of course. Everything, of course, is an opinion!
Bey
In your opinion, then?
Scott Shunk
Yeah, my opinion is it’s the most important hormone because it kind of governs a lot of the things that are most important to what I do. And so when you keep your insulin sensitivity high, as soon as you’re putting foods into your body, carbohydrates, everything in your body runs on glycogen or glucose, carbohydrates, sugar, everything. Your body is fueled by blood sugar. So if you have tons of food in your system all the time, your body’s like, oh, I don’t need to use this because I’ve already got a high blood sugar level. So I’m going to put this into the storage. Here comes more calories. They’re going to go into storage. Storage. Adipose tissue. Adipose tissue is a pretty name for fat. So by keeping your insulin sensitivity high, as soon as you put foods in your body, it’s converting that to blood sugar, to energy. Right away it’s being used. It’s not in danger of being stored. The other big bio hack is to take the majority of your calories from protein sources. The primary thing I do is make sure that I’m getting 200 grams of protein a day.
Scott Shunk
That’s going to take 1200 to 1500 of my calories away. Again, I don’t count my calories anymore. But when you start in this game, you should, just to begin to understand, because eventually you’ll just get to where you know what you’re doing. Once I get the protein in my body, then I can decide whether I want faster carbohydrates to encompass the residual calories that I need to get through my day. But make protein the primary source of your calories on any given day, the primary source of your meals, getting your carbs and your healthy fats in there as well as needed. And you’re going to really keep your insulin sensitivity extraordinarily high, in addition to doing that, intermittent fast for minimally 12 hours.
Angelica
Wow. We learned so much.
Scott Shunk
Yes.
Bey
I’m taking it all in my mind. I’m like, I got to do a pushup.
Angelica
Yeah. I love this art form that you’ve taken on, and I think that your body is your work of art, and we really see and respect that. It’s pretty cool.
Bey
Thank you so much for sharing.
Scott Shunk
Absolutely. It’s been my pleasure.
Angelica
Reflection time, reflection time. Bodybuilder, huh?
Bey
Yeah. I am somebody who has been in the weight room recently. So hearing all that was interesting and a little bit intimidating. I was like, I don’t want to do that.
Angelica
I thought it was cool the way that he was an artist and his body was his work of art, and that was really his vision. And then also how deeply he clearly understood science. Hormones, metabolic rate, diet, down to every last calorie.
Bey
Right. I think he was prioritizing hormones. I was like, wow, that one is more important than the other one. And he talked about the diet and the broccoli and the chicken. So biohacking is serious, real and intense. And he’s someone who’s on top of it. Well, I’m not sure if I love the social side of it. He was like, “this is pretty miserable,” but it was insightful, at least. But I still want to go out and have a beer.
Angelica
Yeah. I dig his honesty. There he was straight up like, you know, it’s really miserable sometimes, but it’s what he’s clearly passionate about. First of all, he looked 30, maybe?
Bey
He had a little glow to him, didn’t he?
Angelica
Yes, he looked young.
Bey
Yeah, yeah.
Angelica
I think he hacked the aging process.
Bey
And I love how he just put a system around it. A lot of these things we already know sleep, work out, drink water, but he put a system in a regimen that was pretty strict around that. And so it’s interesting how the body responds to systems, I guess.
Angelica
Yeah. And science. Straight up science.
Angelica
Hi, this is Angelica Pasquini from So Curious! Sign up for our newsletter to find out when the latest episodes are available, get access to bonus content and be the first to know when we host live events. Visit beyond fi.edu to sign up now. Literally, go do it right now.
Bey
Okay, let’s get into the bio-design side of biohacking. Hi, Ricky, can you introduce yourself?
Ricky Solorzano
I’m currently the CEO and co-founder of Biorealize, and we are on a mission to make it easier to design with biology. Part of that entails being able to empower designers, really industrial designers, product designers, architectural designers, to understand how to integrate bio-design into their workflows. The world of biology is growing every day, and there’s so much to learn, so much to understand and standards to create. And so all this really stems from… Consumers are starting to realize that we want to think more consciously about sustainability and the products that we buy.
Bey
Right.
Ricky Solorzano
So we think about, like, how can we buy things not just for their usage, but for their entire life cycle? So from start to finish, like, okay, we buy something, and then where does it go?
Angelica
So it sounds like sustainability is obviously very important to you. We’re curious about your desire to bring biology and design closer together, obviously, through the lens of sustainability. Could you expand on what inspired you to found Biorealize, and trace your journey for us to where you are today?
Ricky Solorzano
The founding happened some years ago by the co-founders, Karen and Orkin, who were professors of bio-design at the University of Pennsylvania. And they saw… It was really difficult for him to teach his design students just about anything about biology.
Bey
Right.
Ricky Solorzano
And this is about seven to ten years ago. And so they set out to start thinking about how to make it easier. And part of that, they realized that the tools and the platforms needed standards. It needed to become a lot easier to digest.
Bey
Yeah, that’s been a running theme in a lot of the conversations we’ve been having. And just to take a step back, bio-design: designing through biology. What exactly does that mean?
Ricky Solorzano
The way we feel about it is they’re designers and designers when they’re thinking about it, and when we think about it is like, people using stuff. So designers make things that people use, and anything that they make when it integrates biology, that’s what we say is bio-design.
Bey
Okay.
Ricky Solorzano
A large part of bio-design today is about using organisms, and more specifically, probably, bacteria, using them as a useful tool to be of value to humans. Previously, for example, cotton was grown in the fields. Right now they are making bacteria that produces cotton in tanks, and that is in a more sustainable fashion at a lower cost and better performance.
Bey
That’s more sustainable, growing the cotton in the tank as opposed to in a field?
Ricky Solorzano
A field, correct.
Angelica
Yeah. It’s interesting because the through-line through all of learning this week has been that with innovation, now everyone’s hacking, everyone’s biohacking, saving time and energy… A lot. Like what you’re talking about is bio-design, a hack to what is currently and properly available for production.
Ricky Solorzano
It’s interesting. I think that the big pull is from the sustainability aspect. It always starts as a hack.
Angelica
Yeah.
Ricky Solorzano
Because you’re just prototyping, you’re trying to figure stuff out. Everyone sees that biodesign can have an impact in terms of having us live a more sustainable life.
Angelica
Yeah.
Ricky Solorzano
But then we have to think about, well, how about performance and how about cost? Because then we won’t have adoption.
Bey
Your primary product is the B reactor, which is the only portable network smart incubator system on the market. Can you explain how it works and all that scientific jargon that I just said?
Ricky Solorzano
Yeah, I think the B reactor at its core is just really about helping people who don’t have access to biology infrastructure to grow bacteria at the desktop. And that all goes back to, how do we make it easier, faster, more simple to get into the field? A lot of the people that we’re trying to serve are in a room just like this one.
Angelica
Yeah.
Ricky Solorzano
And so we want to put an easy device on their table that they can grow bacteria, start doing biology in an easier way and innovate.
Angelica
Yeah. It’s what makes it more accessible. And so you guys offer tools in brewing, food and beverage, fashion and design. So this is a pretty wide range. I’m curious, what type of goods are you bio-designing that you’re really into? Right now?
Ricky Solorzano
We actually have three categories, biodegradation, biomineralization, and biosynthesis. So biodegradation basically…
Bey
Explain
Ricky Solorzano
…That’s about all this stuff that can be decomposted. Biomineralization is about. there are bacteria that can create minerals. So instead of using, like, glue, you can use minerals to adhere to things together. Biosynthesis is basically like creating dyes. It’s a bacteria. It creates something that’s useful, like a dye, a pigment, and you can use that for some application of interest.
Bey
Could you reflect on the idea of bio-design as an interdisciplinary project and how it changes your understanding of both biology and the arts?
Ricky Solorzano
We love having artists within our community trying to use bacteria or other organisms to make art and as a form of self-expression. It’s all about the human taking control over something to make something.
Angelica
It’s funny because you’re featured on the same episode as a bodybuilder, because it’s a biohacking episode. And we’re curious about this large spectrum of hacking and biohacking. And we were just curious if you can speak to the spectrum of biohacking.
Ricky Solorzano
When I think of hacking, I think of it as like, they’re the rebels. They want to make stuff just because they can.
Angelica
Yeah! And on that note, you want to expand the accessibility of biofabrication to everyone, right?
Ricky Solorzano
You want to be able to get to more of the good stuff, expanding people to be able to be creative and apply that creativity in useful ways of value to humans.
Angelica
Yeah.
Ricky Solorzano
And do so within a way of understanding what some of the restrictions are. And a lot of that comes into not so much the tools, but the bacteria. And that actually is really restricted by the companies that sell or produce those bacteria.
Bey
So can you talk about some dream products that you or you would love to see someone else design or create? Like, what do you see in the future?
Ricky Solorzano
Yeah, in terms of some of the things that we dream about within the company are consumer-based apparel that could have integrations of biology. So imagine your sneakers have bacteria that are either cooling you as you walk, or being able to have sneakers that kind of biodegrade over time. Some of the other things we dream about are having electronics space products that we could throw in our backyard.
Bey
Like a cell phone, just like. Yeah, like a cell phone guy.
Ricky Solorzano
Yeah, exactly. So I’m kind of done with the lifecycle of this thing, and I wanted to just throw it away. Instead of throwing it in the garbage, you throw it in your backyard.
Bey
I want to throw it in my backyard.
Angelica
I know. Let’s just biodegrade it all. It’s so gorgeous as an idea.
Ricky Solorzano
Part of that is because there’s a lot of people today that do throw away their phones in the garbage, and it’s actually not good. If we could get to a place where people could just throw it away, even if it’s in the garbage, then that’s going to be healthier for us.
Angelica
Yes. I feel like it’s like eliminating people having to do the right thing. All right. We’ll just make it easier to let you throw it out.
Bey
So on your website, Ricky, you describe the urgent need to redesign and scale everyday products with biology that are more sustainable and healthier for us and our environment. Can you explain a little bit further the urgency of bio-design and sustainability? Does this need to happen yesterday, some of the ways we’re interacting with our world and our environment?
Ricky Solorzano
I think we’re more on, like, a 10-20 year urgency that we really need to think about in terms of the amount of plastic in the world, the greenhouse gas emissions. So all those things in terms of really about….petrochemicals, like the way that we’re including petrochemicals into products. And it’s not so much that we use plastic, it’s the fact that we continue to produce new plastic. So it’s kind of like, one is about being able to access the plastic that’s already in the ground that we’ve thrown away, or two, it’s about creating products that we could just throw away that don’t have any plastic or don’t have any petrochemicals, more than anything.
Angelica
Do you notice a shift in quality when you use these materials?
Ricky Solorzano
A lot of people have been able to innovate materials that seem very promising, so they have the same properties to be able to maintain the packaged items and the packaged goods. There are some companies that already have been making leaps and bounds in terms of packaging. There’s a company called Innovative Design that does mushroom-based packaging. It’s really cool. Instead of plastics for packaging, things like Dell computers and things like that.
Bey
Where do you see room for quicker improvements from the everyday person side of their life, biohacking, their habits, or from the big businesses and corporations that are packaging all these things and shipping it daily and across the planet and things like that? Where is the improvement to be made and where can it be done faster?
Ricky Solorzano
On the consumer side, it’s about the mental awareness, like being selective about the sustainability, knowing and thinking conscientiously to look, to double-check. What is the life cycle of this product going to be?
Bey
Yeah, I certainly don’t ask that. Sometimes I do, if I get a cell phone, how long will I have this?
Ricky Solorzano
It’s something like that? Maybe it’s not obvious today, but maybe it’ll be obvious in a year from now. And just noticing, “I wonder where this is actually going,” or how is this being removed back into the world kind of thing. So I think from the consumer side, it’s more about just mental awareness. On the corporation side, they could be making bigger investments in terms of integrating new technologies, new packaging materials, new materials in general, or new processes that are all about thinking about their carbon footprint.
Angelica
Yes, for real.
Ricky Solorzano
It’s kind of both of those coming together in the center, the consumer mental shift and the investments from the corporations on carbon footprint. And then the third piece is the governments making that slight push. We’re going to find ourselves going in a better direction, I think.
Angelica
I love that.
Ricky Solorzano
Yeah.
Angelica
Wow. Thank you so much. We learned a lot.
Bey
Yeah. Thank you so much. It is about that time, Ang, reflection time. Man. That was fun. And I really love the idea of just throwing things into my backyard.
Angelica
Me too. I can’t wait. I’m going to throw it all: throw my bed, throw my shoes [laughter].
Bey
Yeah! The work that he’s doing is really interesting, too. And trying to alleviate pressure on consumers so we can just make decisions more streamlined, more clearly.
Angelica
Yeah. I mean, what a cool way to innovate with technology that is using our Earth to then become, later, part of our Earth without the human being needing to honestly do all of this life admin around every time you buy something.
Bey
Yeah.
Angelica
People aren’t doing it.
Bey
There’s a lot of work. Yeah.
Angelica
You might cut that out.
Bey
Absolutely. We talked about recycling. Right. And there’s a number numerical system, one to six. And I don’t even know if the city here, or New York, or in other cities, handles all those numbers.
Angelica
No, it doesn’t.
Bey
You really have to know it. And so I appreciate the idea of having less pressure on us. Okay, let’s finish strong. On this episode, we are bringing back our recurring segment today, Body of Knowledge, with Chief Bioscientist at the Franklin Institute, Dr. Jayatri Das. In this segment, we are going to ask some questions and talk about the ideas about biohacking, in kind of an open-forum style. Then we are going to take to the Internet and see what people on Google are searching for. Welcome, Jayatri. On this episode, we’re going to be talking about biohacking. And I would love to just get some brief reflections from you.
Jayatri Das
So I think what’s really interesting about biohacking is that there are different ways that we think about what that word means. And we’ve heard two very different examples of how people think about biohacking. So if I were to try and find, what is that common theme? It’s this idea that we can look at the tools that nature has made for ourselves, for the way that our bodies work, for the way that living things in nature work, and think about how we use those tools for different purposes. Right. So we think about manufacturing other things, like fabric, or art, and things like that using biological tools. But we can also think about, okay, how can we optimize these biological tools to make ourselves better?
Bey
Right. When I hear biohacking, the word “hacking” jumps off to me, and I guess that suggests that something is not going the way you want it to go or something’s going awry and you’re trying to fix it. But I never think about my body in any way where it’s like, oh, this isn’t going right… Unless I get out of bed and my shoulder’s cracking or something like that, I’m like, “what’s going on with that?”
Angelica
Yeah.
Bey
I generally like the way I’m functioning.
Angelica
That’s good. That’s a blessing. I think the hacking, too, is very much like, how do I make a shortcut? How do I get an advancement? How do I… you know, life hacks are often just things that are very simple ideas, like a shortcut, a way to skip over something that might be taking too much time or effort. Yeah.
Jayatri Das
No, I think both of those are really good perceptions of how we think about this idea of hacking. And when we apply it to biology, it’s this idea that we don’t have to just sit back and watch anymore. Right. We now understand how biology works in such a way that we can use it for shortcuts or we can use it to think about how do we not just stay comfortable with who we are and have to accept that, but actually be proactive about building yourself into something else that you might want to be.
Bey
Right! I love the idea of bodybuilding because I’ve always been a little skinny kid, especially growing up. And so the idea of taking supplements and meal prepping and having a bunch of chicken and protein and these things kind of, I guess, concentrating your effort to build a bigger shoulder, a bigger calf muscle or something like that, I haven’t been able to master that too well. But I like the idea of it. But I don’t know. That doesn’t strike me as biohacking. It’s like, well, you’re just dieting and eating. Right. But am I wrong in assuming that?
Jayatri Das
No. I mean, you can think of biohacking as kind of on this spectrum. Right? Like if you’re looking at meditation, I know that Angelica you’re into meditation. That can be sort of a very low-level type of biohacking. I know that this is how my brain works, and I’m going to repurpose that to accomplish a certain goal. So that’s a very simple level. You could be a biohacker, right?
Angelica
Yeah. In a way, it does feel that way. It’s like a magic trick sometimes because you can catch the loop. As long as you can find that space in between the two thoughts, you kind of take your power back, you know what I’m saying?
Jayatri Das
Right.
Angelica
In that very cyclical moment. So it is like a hack.
Bey
I was going to say, have you found that, like studying or when you’re meditating? People say when you’re physically writing something or physically touching a book, it kind of sits in your brain a little longer. Is that biohacking? Is studying for a final a biohack that students are doing across the country?
Jayatri Das
I think where my mind goes is that biohacking is kind of working outside the system a little bit.
Angelica
Right. All hacking has that. Yes. Snowden, Edward Snowden. They’re the anarchists of the science world, these hackers. I love that. I’m always attracted to the hackers because I’m like, “what’s really going on, man?”
Bey
Love it, love it.
Jayatri Das
Right. I’m not necessarily advocating that breaking laws or anything in there, because in some cases, the laws haven’t even caught up to what’s possible. That’s a whole different conversation. But there’s a little bit of trying to break the rules. Whether it’s because you want to improve your health, whether you want to control your body, whether you want to sort of fend off aging. Like, these are different reasons. If you’re thinking about body hacking in particular, these are all different reasons why people think about doing that. So it’s a little bit of just trying to think outside the box.
Angelica
Totally.
Bey
Right. Is cancer research somewhere in that spectrum of biohacking, trying to get around these cells that multiply and ultimately, unfortunately, kill a lot of people?
Jayatri Das
That’s a question that I think starts to get at the nuance here, because the way that most cancer research is done is kind of within the confines of an established system of research. Right. Because there are so many safeguards to protect people’s health and things like that. But I think the mindset of a scientist is a little bit of a hacker mindset.
Angelica
Right. For sure.
Jayatri Das
One of the biggest breakthroughs in cancer research that has come about in the last decade or so is this idea of hacking your body’s own immune system to fight cancer cells. Right. So I think that’s kind of like a hacker mindset within sort of like the established structure of medical research.
Bey
Okay. So we, of course, hit up the Internet. We ask the Google.
Angelica
Amazing. Let’s move into the second half of this segment, Body of Knowledge Autofill. We typed in our keyword “biohacking,” and Google gave us the most searched questions that people have been asking, in the privacy of their own homes, online when they think no one can read it. So let’s read off some of the most popular questions people are asking Google about biohacking.
Bey
The first one is, “is biohacking ethical?”
Jayatri Das
That’s a good one.
Angelica
Yeah.
Jayatri Das
That’s such a fuzzy line to draw, right? Yeah.
Angelica
I mean, it’s a little nail on the head. Okay. It’s not a very nuanced question. It’s very like, “so is it ethical or what?” People want to know. That’s going to be the first one because people are like, all right, is this right or wrong? I think that’s kind of the gut instinct people get when they hear about it. They want to make it human, sort of.
Bey
I think some people kind of make that decision themselves, too, when they first hear it. “We can make you smarter tomorrow if you inject yourself” and say, “well, I don’t know if I want to do that.”
Angelica
Mm-hmm.
Jayatri Das
But if somebody makes their own decision to put a computer chip in their finger or something, sure, whatever, it’s your own body. I think where the ethical questions around biohacking start to get more nebulous is now that we can actually change genes. That…Okay…What does that mean about making your own decisions? Like, who makes those decisions for you? What if you change the genes that aren’t just in your own body, but are the genes that you pass along to your children?
Angelica
Right.
Bey
Wow.
Jayatri Das
Do they have a choice?
Angelica
Yeah. It’s so true.
Jayatri Das
I think if you stay kind of at the shallow level, that life hacks kind of thing that it’s like, okay, we’re okay with this, but with new technology that is changing what it means about what’s possible. The ethical questions get a lot thornier, right?
Angelica
Yeah.
Bey
This next one sounds so funny to me, and I just want to see your reactions to this. “Biohacking is not a crime.”
Angelica
I feel like this with someone being like, “biohacking is not a crime…right? I’m not wrong, right? Am I guilty? Am I going to jail?”
Jayatri Das
Right.
Bey
Yeah. They typed it out slowly: “it’s not a crime, right?
Angelica
It’s a guilty question.
Jayatri Das
It is really kind of fascinating, the experiments that people do on themselves.
Angelica
Oh, go on.
Jayatri Das
There’s like, the people who literally think that, oh, I want to be able to open a card swipe door with my hand. And so I’m just going to put that RFID chip under my skin. And then there are the bodybuilders who learn about gene editing and think that “everybody does it…it’s just like the vitamin supplements. What I’m going to do is actually try and change my own genes to build my own muscle.” And maybe that’s not such a great idea.
Angelica
Yeah. You know what else it makes me think of? Like designer dogs, when people curate a dog that they want.
Jayatri Das
Yeah.
Angelica
I mean, I know we’re talking about humans, but also even just in pets, it happens, like creating the pets, hypoallergenic, certain kind of face, certain kind of color, everything.
Bey
I don’t want to trail off too much, but I thought I saw a headline maybe a couple of months ago about trying to bring back the Woolly Mammoth?
Jayatri Das
Oh, yeah.
Bey
And I’m like, is this an Onion article or is this real? I think that is absolutely 100% real. People are interested in doing that and taking steps towards that.
Jayatri Das
It is. And that’s where these are questions that of like, “wait, what should science be doing?” Right? Because the people who want to bring back the woolly mammoth suggest that by bringing back the woolly mammoth, we can tackle environmental degradation and things like that. But aren’t there 50 other things that we should be doing before we go to biohacking?
Angelica
That’s exactly what I gut went to. I was like, we still have hungry kids in the US. So hold up. Before you bring back the Woolly Mammoth…
Bey
Can you make a comedy sketch out of that, “Before you bring back the woolly mammoth…” I love that.
Things to do before bringing back the Woolly mammoth. We’ve got things on the agenda.
Bey
I love that. The next one here is “biohacking is amazing.”
Jayatri Das
It’s such a subjective thing… If you don’t think biohacking absolutely can be amazing.
Angelica
Yeah.
Jayatri Das
But then there’s something like, “wait, what?”
Angelica
Yeah. I mean, it is caused for amazement, right?
Bey
I think “amazing” denotes positive feelings in all of us, generally speaking.
Jayatri Das
I think one of my favorite examples of biohacking, like an artist who, used under the principle of biohacking, made cheese from celebrities.
Angelica
Wait, what does that mean? Oh, my God.
Jayatri Das
By collecting bacteria from famous people from their armpits and toes and belly buttons and using that to make cheese.
Angelica
Wow.
Jayatri Das
So that’s a different way to think about it.
Angelica
Wow. I’m wrapping my mind around that. And did people buy it?
Jayatri Das
It was art. Oh, it was.
Angelica
That’s another hilarious term, art. We won’t go there.
Jayatri Das
I didn’t mean to come across as being judgmental of art as a scientist.
Angelica
No, it’s hilarious to call it art, I’m saying the bacteria cheese from a celebrity.
Bey
Wow. Yeah. That’s still washing over me.
Angelica
Me too.
Bey
I can’t even have a response to that right now, like that’s just…
Angelica
I’m sure it was a commentary of sorts. And I’d love to read the artist statement, which is always a little more intense than, it can be more interesting than the work itself.
Jayatri Das
But if you think about biohacking as a way to use biology outside the confines of the system, there you go.
Bey
Within that context, I am amazed. That’s absolutely amazing. So, “biohacking for weight loss.”
Jayatri Das
Interesting. I mean, intermittent fasting. I see that often as one of the classic hacks. Yeah. I’m actually not up to speed on what the evidence for that is. But I know a lot of people do it.
Bey
And the last one, you want to go for it?
Angelica
Sure. “Biohacking for longevity.”
Jayatri Das
Oh, this is an interesting one.
Angelica
Okay.
Jayatri Das
Because one mindset that is common among many biohackers is this idea that, “why be constrained by the human body?” Like, “what is death?” Right?
Angelica
Right.
Jayatri Das
Let’s just get rid of it. Why do we need to die? Let’s just change our bodies so we keep living. So you see things like people injecting, like doing blood transfusions from young people as a way to try and fend off aging.
Angelica
Wow. I did not know that. Is that some, like, upper-echelon, need to have a lot of..? It sounds expensive. Probably. Like getting a blood transfusion for cosmetic reasons.
Bey
Right.
Angelica
That sounds very bougie to me.
Bey
Yeah. You probably can’t go to CVS for that.
Angelica
People are waiting for those for really intense reasons. And then I guess there are people that are like, I’d love to look a little younger. Let’s give it a go.
Bey
Yeah. I mean, all these questions are so interesting because it denotes some kind of concern or worries about life as we understand it. “I don’t like that part of life and I don’t want this function of it.” And I’m hearing some of these examples, it’s just blowing my mind. I’m just… Mind-blowing.
Angelica
Thanks so much, Jayatri.
Angelica
And thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of So Curious! This podcast is part of The Franklin Institute. The Franklin Institute is a science museum located in Philadelphia. The Franklin Institute’s mission is to inspire a passion for learning about science and technology. For more information on everything about the Franklin Institute, visit fi.edu.
Angelica
This podcast is produced by Radio Kismet. Radio Kismet is Philadelphia’s premier podcast network for businesses looking to develop their own branded podcast content. Check them out at radiokismet.com. There are a lot of people who make this podcast happen. Thanks to the producers, Joy Montefusco and Jayatr Das. Our managing producer, Emily Charish. Our operations head, Christopher Plant. Our associate producer, Liliana Green. Our audio team, Christian Cedarlund, Goldie Bingley, Lauren DeLuca, and Brad Florent. Our development producer, Opeola Bukola. Our science writer, Kira Villette, and our graphic designer, Emma Sager. See you next week.
