Kirsten Michelle Cills
Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to So Curious!, presented by the Franklin Institute.
The Bul Bey
We are your hosts. I am the Bul Bey.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
And I am Kirsten Michelle Cills. On this season of So Curious!, we are talking about the science behind love and sex and relationships. Everything from your brain on love, to why we obsess over our favorite television characters, to how science and tech are changing our relationships with each other.
The Bul Bey
For this episode, we are talking with psychologist Dr. Alina Liu about how apps like Tinder, Grindr, and Hinge are structured like games.
Dr. Alina Liu
Very easy to get kind of caught in the act of swiping and forget this true connection, that there’s not a humor on the other side of it.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
And later on in this episode, we will be talking to the founder of a popular dating app.
Geoffrey Cook
We found that if you add live streaming video into a dating app, you can kind of transform those moments of loneliness into moments of connection.
The Bul Bey
What does it mean for something to be gamified? Can you play at dating with strategies and rewards? And can you win?
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Oh, my God. That’s a good question. I mean, I feel like if your end result is to find a partner, you can totally win, right?
The Bul Bey
Yeah.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
But also there’s not, like, set rules. Like, what if your end result is to go on a certain amount of dates in a certain amount of time? And then it’s like, if you do find someone and you fall in love with them, you lost.
The Bul Bey
Right. What’s interesting is I’ve been on some of these dating apps, and sometimes it’s just exciting to be on the app, not even with the goal in mind of meeting someone or meeting up with someone. Just being on the app, the swiping and the graphics and whatever sound effects and the personalizations. You can make people really go crazy with their bio. They get really creative.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Yeah. And then it gets you. You get, like, rewards, confetti and all of that. It’s like playing a slot machine. You’re like, Oh, my God, I won! And it means nothing, but yeah, it means nothing, but it just makes your freaking dopamine light up in your head. You’re so excited.
The Bul Bey
Our first guest can really break down how these apps make us feel. Let’s welcome Dr. Alina Liu, an expert on the gamified experience of choosing a match.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Do you mind just introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about what you do?
Dr. Alina Liu
My name is Alina Liu. I’m a licensed psychologist in San Francisco. I have a private practice where I provide psychotherapy to couples and individuals.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Alina, you provide therapy in two different languages: English and Mandarin Chinese. How does language affect your experience and your practice of therapy?
Dr. Alina Liu
I think when we speak different languages, it kind of allows us to access different parts of ourselves. It allows us to express ourselves more fully. So, for example, when I speak Chinese, I think I’m more able to access the nuances of my experience as opposed to English, I feel more expressive, I feel more attuned to the state of the emotion that I’m feeling, whether it’s happiness or sadness. But I think the interesting difference is that in English, sadness and happiness, they are two unrelated words. They are very different. But in Chinese, the expression of emotions, a lot of times, has to do with the organ of heart. For example, if you say happy, happiness translates into [Chinese word], so that literally means open heart. And if you want to say sadness, it translates into injured heart. So it also has to do with the heart. And discouragement is a gray heart, so the color gray. So you can almost imagine someone kind of losing their spark. Therapy, in so many ways, it’s about helping people understand their story, making sense of their narrative. It’s very integrative. So in that sense, I think Mandarin Chinese, it’s very integrated. It considers the body and the mind.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Have you always, your whole life, spoken both, or is one your first language?
Dr. Alina Liu
So Chinese is actually my first language, and I learn English later on. And I find them to be really complimentary in a lot of ways.
The Bul Bey
Between the wo languages, you talked about them being complimentary. I would love, like, a small example of that.
Dr. Alina Liu
Sometimes we might comment on the intensity of the emotions. I’m not speaking English because it really allows me to be more animated. And if I want to delve into the nuances, and I think Chinese is also very interconnected. A lot of times you’re considering other people’s experience when you’re speaking it’s less expressive because in the Chinese culture sometimes suppressing your emotions and kind of having that even keel is considered virtual. So I think in that sense the two languages are very complementary. One is more expressive, the intensity, the other one is more interpersonally rooted.
The Bul Bey
You have an article where you describe dating apps transforming dating into games. How and why does this happen and how does this affect our ability to understand compatibility and love?
Dr. Alina Liu
When we think about a game, it’s something that we escape into, something that’s disconnected from reality, right? There’s really no consequences of losing in the game, because we’re not emotionally vulnerable. So if we’re not using dating apps — nowadays, there are a lot of different dating apps — if we’re not using them intentionally and mindfully, it’s very easy to get kind of caught in the act of swiping and forget this true connection, that there’s not a human on the other side of it, and turn it into a game where we get this false sense of connection and this ego boost. And that’s why, when a lot of people spend hours on dating apps, it ends up making you feel really terrible and shitty as opposed to feeling nourished and connected.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
You reported, in one of your articles, comparing dating apps to a slot machine.
Dr. Alina Liu
It’s very animated, I think, in that sense. And dating apps use exactly that strategy, right? Sometimes we get a match, your phone might vibrate, you get a sound effect, and you get this, like, confetti, and all of that.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Yeah, right. The graphics, they don’t mean anything, but they’re so exciting to us in the moment.
The Bul Bey
Exactly how is compatibility currently measured in apps?
Dr. Alina Liu
Yes, I think that’s really kind of interesting and so complicated question, because right now for dating apps, I think compatibility is measured through more of the exclusion criteria. Right. Because we set filters on age, political beliefs, hobbies, and in a lot of ways it’s very concrete. And I think that’s kind of what dating apps are set out to do, is set out to introduce us to this large dating pool. It’s like a Pandora’s box, but once we’re there, we’re kind of just there on our own. So I would say for folks who are interested in long-term relationships, maybe consider compatibility in the sense of: what are your goals and values in dating compared to your partner’s? If you’re someone who values intimacy, closeness and stability, but your partner is really valuing adventure and freedom, maybe that’s not very compatible in that sense. And also think about communication styles. There’s actually a great book called “Attached,” by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller, and they talk about different attachment styles. If you’re someone who’s anxiously attached, you need a lot of reassurance, and if your partner is avoidant, they’re not comfortable with intimacy, it can be really painful dating someone who’s not compatible in that sense.
The Bul Bey
And if you had to make your own app, how would you measure compatibility? What little metrics would you use?
Dr. Alina Liu
I would love to have people fill out questionnaires about their past relationships, looking at history sometimes that would be a really good predictor. And their communication styles, how good they are communicating via email, via text, or in person. What’s their attachment style? I think all of those things I’m interested in, but I don’t know if anyone would join my dating app!
Kirsten Michelle Cills
I will. I love it.
The Bul Bey
What are the negative consequences when one does not use mindfulness and intentionality when approaching dating in these apps?
Dr. Alina Liu
When we’re not using mindfulness and intention? With dating apps, it becomes something that we use the to pass time, maybe filling in, like, a void when you’re feeling bored or you’re lacking something in your life — maybe real connections. I sometimes compare dating apps to getting a snack of connection. It’s not something that’s nourishing, it’s not a meal like the real people that we go out there and meet, friends and family. Dating requires vulnerability and taking risks, and there’s really no way around that. But with dating apps, it becomes very easy to kind of filter out what we don’t like or move on to the next person because we have this abundance at our fingertips. It’s very easy to not have that difficult conversation, just move on to a different person, right?
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Like you said, there is such an abundance, right? Like there’s a saturation of what we are able to choose. We have so many options. From your point of view, have you seen any significant findings or data about the effect that has on the human brain to have that many choices and that much at your fingertips?
Dr. Alina Liu
That’s something we call choice paralysis. It’s actually a very fascinating phenomenon because in the western culture we’re so used to abundance. Having choice is almost intertwined with our identity, like independence and autonomy. But according to research, sometimes having too many choices can be detrimental, makes it harder to commit to any one of them. And especially when it comes to dating, because we have so many choices, we have this larger access to a larger dating pool. It’s hard to decide when you want to be off the app. Like you’re saying, just deleting your app is such a big deal nowadays. It’s like a step towards commitment almost, or a precept.
The Bul Bey
I love to pose this question to you. I think I brought it up to some of our conversations, Kirsten, of choice, and I would love to know the science behind that. Does it make one feel secure and good and being stuck in a space of not being able to choose? Does that negatively affect someone’s emotions or negatively affect someone’s brain?
Dr. Alina Liu
Yeah, I think that kind of varies person to person. And a lot of times when we’re having difficulty, to choose or making that decision, maybe it’s time to ask ourselves, what are my values here? Do I value long term relationship stability? Or having this novelty, and just being able to date different partners and having the freedom to move through one choice to another. And I think that becomes, nowadays, a fundamental kind of conflict for those of us living in a society with a lot of choices, whether it’s choosing furniture or choosing a partner. There’s just so many out there.
The Bul Bey
How does one use dating apps with mindfulness and intention?
Dr. Alina Liu
Yeah. I think dating apps reinforce the connection by pairing the swiping motion with the periodic reward of getting a match. So to kind of decrease the strength of this connection, I will try setting intentional limits. Maybe even just give yourself 30 minutes a day as opposed to unlimited time to swipe through potential matches. And also, really pay close attention to each profile, as opposed to just mindlessly paying attention to what the picture looks like. Read their description and really try to make this more humanizing and personal, as opposed to disconnected, similar to the game. And the other thing I would say is to make an effort to meet some of your matches in person as opposed to keeping the conversation online via text. That’s another way of humanizing the process, reminding yourself that there’s another person on the other side of the screen. And also, reconnecting with your values. Asking yourself and reminding yourself when you feel lost why you’re on dating apps in the first place? Is it to look for something casual, or establishing more of a long-term relationship? If that’s the case, then maybe being more vulnerable, being more upfront about your needs and what you’re looking for is more important.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Can you share any special experiences working with people you’ve counseled? In the context of compatibility?
Dr. Alina Liu
I think the biggest thing that comes to my mind is a lot of times we’re expecting this perfect match, finding someone with our soul mate that’s perfect for us or someone who’s so similar and agree with us on a lot of the important aspects of life choices and decisions. But my understanding of compatibility, through my clinical work, has really quite been very different from that. I think compatibility is more about reconciling differences, kind of being able to come to a middle ground, compromise. As opposed to finding someone who’s perfect, who agrees with us. The way that people have been using dating apps, using exclusion criteria, move on from one person to the next when things don’t work out — I think it’s really highlighting that point where we have difficulty reconciling with differences. It feels easier to go on to the next person. One couple that I’m working with come to mind. One partner is particularly anxious. She needs a lot of closeness, she wants to spend a lot of quality time with her partner, and the other person is not really understanding how much it means to her. He’s used to his independence, and sometimes spending too much time with her, it kind of threatens his sense of autonomy and freedom. Through our work together, they’re able to kind of find this middle ground where they can set a time every week to spend quality time together and really reconnect and kind of deposit into their relationship bank, without having one partner feeling suffocated or the other partner feeling abandoned. And I think it’s really through having that conversation, trying to find a middle ground and compromise, is where relationships thrive.
The Bul Bey
Dr Alina Liu, thank you so much for coming on So Curious! Podcast.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Thank you so much. It was awesome talking to you.
Dr. Alina Liu
Thank you so much for having me.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Have a great rest of your day.
Dr. Alina Liu
Thank you. You too.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
There’s a lot of differences when it comes to meeting someone on an app versus in real life. But I also think it’s kind of preference. If you’re someone who is super sociable, like, you love human connection, you love being around people, then I can see that being like priority one when you start talking to someone: we need to meet in person. But then there’s also these people maybe who aren’t as social or don’t feel as comfortable in person or like, thinking on the fly. You know that show Catfish?
The Bul Bey
I do, yeah.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Where people will meet someone online…. And it’s so common these people will be fully engaged. Like, you will have proposed to someone by sending them a ring in the mail without ever having met them. And to them, that’s still like the biggest love they’ve ever felt. I guess it really comes down to your priorities. Like, you and I are sociable people. I would want to meet someone in person right away.
The Bul Bey
Right? Yeah. I’m so curious about the strength of relationships and the strength of bonds created in person versus on platforms. I grew up with the Internet, and I was on message boards and things like that. So if there’s like a standard already set in terms of interest, like apps and Tinder, like, you are on there to meet someone, you kind of check things off the list and kind of engage in deeper, engaging conversations and maybe that can build a more intense relationship. Versus if you meet someone in person, you need to see them a couple of times before you start jumping into really deep topics.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
True. I feel like when it’s, especially like you said, you’re on a dating app….We all know what we’re here for, right?
The Bul Bey
We know why we downloaded this app for the fifth time and are swiping.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
I know the assignment. Right. Which is: I’m here to meet somebody.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
This is a great time to transition to our next guest, who founded the social dating app You Meet Me. We are joined here today with Geoffrey Cook. Welcome, Geofffrey. Thank you for being with us. Can you just introduce yourself, tell us a little about you, where you are, what you do?
Geoffrey Cook
Sure. So I am the CEO and founder of a company called the Meet Group. We make a number of mobile meetings and live streaming apps serving especially a dating audience, help people find meaningful connections. Some of our bigger apps are Meetme, Tagged, levou, and Skout. And we marry that, actually, with a live streaming video platform that powers some of the largest dating and meeting communities in the world. We actually power seven of the top 50 social apps with live streaming video and creator economy. In addition, I am co CEO of the ParshipMeet Group, which is the parent entit,y and includes brands like Eharmony and Parship and others.
The Bul Bey
And could you talk a little bit more about The Meet Group and about your journey? Take us back to the start of it. How did it all start for you?
Geoffrey Cook
It actually all started as a social network called MyYearbook.com. Back in 2005, I started MyYearbook along with my brother and sister, Dave and Catherine, and it was meant to be a social network for meeting new people, actually. And this is the early days of social networks. Facebook, at the time we started, was really only in Harvard, and so we started that and we had some initial traction. We actually were able to get a million people to join in the first nine months. Over the last 15 years, technology has transformed dramatically. But then in 2016, I had been spending some time in China. That was my first glimpse of livestreaming video, actually, especially in a dating context. And there was a flavor to that that I thought would work for our audience. Livestreaming video became our fastest growing product in our history, and it powers a good portion of our revenue today.
The Bul Bey
And Geoff, for a second, I want to go back to 2005, where this journey started. Where were you in terms of your skill level, your insight? Was this all new to you? Were you figuring it out?
Geoffrey Cook
I started my first company, a sophomore at Harvard, and then sold that a couple of years after I graduated from Harvard. When you sell one company, sometimes you worry you don’t have another hit in you, especially when you’re 24. As I was back then, I was kind of hungry to do something again. I had an intuition that social networks were going to be big.
The Bul Bey
Of course, social media…
Geoffrey Cook
If I knew how big, the smarter play would have been to just go get a job at Facebook. It is what it is, and it ended up working out pretty well.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
What is live streaming within the context of this app and within dating apps?
Geoffrey Cook
It really goes to: why are people on dating apps in the first place? They’re there to feel less lonely. And a dating app can feel like the loneliest place on Earth. When you’re putting yourself out there, trying to meet people and you’re not receiving signal back. We found that if you add live-streaming video into a dating app, you can kind of transform those moments of loneliness into moments of connection by introducing them to a streamer. Now, when you think livestreaming video and dating, most people immediately think, oh, one-on-one, I get it, one-on-one speed dating or something. But that’s not what this model is at all. It’s essentially more like Twitch for dating. Right. And it turns out that those streamers are looking for people to connect with, too. When you have such a giant marketplace at the very top end, these are really true creators, and those creators that can actually earn virtual gifts from our audience, which is basically a form of tipping. We have creators that can make a million dollars plus a year off the platform!
The Bul Bey
This could be a group of people livestreaming with one another, all with the mindset of dating.
Geoffrey Cook
That’s right. We’re in the process of bringing that to more and more applications, even ones that we don’t build, because we built the live streaming creator economy suite, that makes it very easy to integrate it into a third party app.
The Bul Bey
How would you describe a meaningful connection? Or, how is that described on your platform?
Geoffrey Cook
I think a meaningful connection is a connection with somebody that was meaningful to you in that context. It could be in the form of a date. Certainly, there’s plenty of people on our platforms meeting up in person, but it could just be, “this is somebody I check in with at 03:00 pm every day.” Even Twitch, one of their most popular channels, is just chatting. When people aren’t playing video games, they’re just chatting. TikTok has a live-streaming video function. So this concept is kind of coming to almost every social app.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Are you able to notice a trend in demographics of age, sex, depending on where in the world they are? Do you have anything like that with your users?
Geoffrey Cook
Our users really are all over the globe. One of the ways we measure whether the platform is working for a given app is: what percentage of the apps users use it every day? And really, across different demographics and locations, we see pretty good uptake. I would say probably in the streamer cohort, you’re often 18 to 45. But a lot of people, when they first hear these concepts, they think, oh, the streamers are probably all 18 to 24. That’s not the case at all. It really is quite broad in its age dynamics.
The Bul Bey
Are you describing some of the data points that would make up, I guess, “the algorithm”?
Geoffrey Cook
The algorithm is obviously critically important, and has come a long way. In the beginning when we first launched, it was actually largely hand-curated. So we felt the need not to allow algorithms to put certain content up front because, we were afraid of what algorithms would decide to put up front. Right? You can imagine why. We actually still have a sizable talent team that curates, actually looks at, all these individual streamers and decides which ones are on brand. We then, of course…have now made a number of advances in real-time recommendations of streams, using a neural network — a machine learning algorithm that takes a number of things into account. So at this point, it’s a machine learning algorithm that generates recommendations, but in the earliest days, it was actually hand-curated.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
In your view, what is the secret combination of finding who’s going to be compatible with each other?
Geoffrey Cook
It’s a lot about behavioral [science], right? So, the perfect person to show you in an algorithm would be someone who you are going to maybe send a message to, let’s say, and that person will respond to your message. Unlike Netflix, where they have famously good algorithms on making recommendations for movies, the movie has to like you back in a dating and meeting context. And so that adds a level of complexity that far exceeds the typical recommendation engine. But that is what we’re ultimately looking to give you: someone who you’re going to want to chat with, and that person is going to want to chat with you. You also want to spread signal around. If all you did was show the people that are most likely to receive a message, then you would have all of the messages going to a very small set of people. And if you don’t take into account the likelihood to send a message back, then you will end up in that sort of state.
The Bul Bey
Could you share some of the success stories of people who have met on some of your apps?
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Do you know anyone personally in your life who has used it and been successful?
Geoffrey Cook
There’s countless stories! It’s frequent where I’ll get a message or testimonial about “how I found someone…” I don’t want to throw any of my relationships under the bus with the people they met, so I’ll leave it at that!
The Bul Bey
Has your app — and you’ve seen people connect on these platforms — given you hope that people can connect in different ways, that’s not so traditional?
Geoffrey Cook
Yeah, I think we’re in this interesting moment. A lot of apps are focused on this concept of trying to find you connections that might be very tailored to what you’re looking for. So really spreading throughout every niche, we see what the biggest dating apps in the world are, and everybody knows their names, but are they tailored enough to the various interest groups and dynamics that a person really represents? I think those big dating platforms will continue to be big dating platforms, but I think you’ll also see a plethora of kind of new and interesting apps come out, maybe. Single Parents was a recent one. Really interesting, narrow niche apps.
The Bul Bey
I would make an app where you have to be a serial ghoster.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
I was going to say, if there’s one thing that I think Bey and I have learned is there is a niche for everything. There is a market for so much. Everybody experiences love, sex, and relationships in so many different ways, in so many different countries and cultures. Yeah. You’re doing amazing work. That’s so wonderful.
The Bul Bey
Yeah. Do you have any final thoughts you’d like to share with us?
Geoffrey Cook
I think the team it’s a big team. It’s obviously not just me, and what energizes everyone is coming up with interesting new experiences that do lead to this meaningful connection. And so if we’re doing that, our audience is happy, and ultimately, hopefully, the company then is also growing.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Amazing. Thank you so much, Geoff. Thank you for being here with us today.
Geoffrey Cook
Happy to be here. Thank you.
The Bul Bey
Is there something about these apps that kind of create levity?
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Well, they create courage. I feel like they create…You don’t have to look someone in the eye and like… You ever send a message to someone where you send it and then immediately put your phone away? I don’t even want to see their response, I’m so nervous that I sent that!
The Bul Bey
Yeah. Is that fear, like, “fight or flight,” in that moment when you’re super nervous and anxious?
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Yeah.
The Bul Bey
That’s interesting.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
I don’t know what it is, man, but I don’t love it.
The Bul Bey
Yeah, yeah.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
So as you know, this is a science podcast, of course, but really what each topic relates back to is people navigating all sorts of relationships. Right? So now we are going to meet with an actual human couple for this segment that we like to call “Love Actually: Sam and Cal Edition.”
The Bul Bey
Calvin, Sam, how are you guys?
Calvin
Great. Yeah, I’m good. Having a cocktail. It’s an afternoon on a Saturday. No problems.
The Bul Bey
Nice.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Love that. And where are you all zooming with us from? Where are you?
Sam
We’re in Wallingford, Connecticut.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Oh, word. Okay. And so what would you say has been the most rewarding part of your relationship so far, and the most challenging?
Sam
Just sharing the most intimate part of our lives with each other, like meeting each other’s family, and sharing the holiday traditions and stuff like that. The more time we spend together, I feel like we always are just learning more about each other.
Calvin
I think Sam has really been able to take a…confidence in me that I didn’t really have…And just kind of lift me up, and pull that confidence out of me. I hope that I’ve done similar things. And being able to challenge him and push him into being better in certain aspects. I think the most challenging thing for a long time was just our communication. Again, because it’s so casual at first, just kind of… Neither of us knowing where we were in our lives. I was figuring out, because of covid — I think that’s where the challenge came in as it forced me to move back home in Connecticut where I didn’t necessarily, at that time, see myself ending up right out of college. And then figuring out where the next step was because I wasn’t planning on staying in my childhood home, looking at my childhood walls for too much longer. But yeah.
The Bul Bey
What do you love about each other?
Sam
I love that Cal makes me do things that I never would have done previously after I was with him. He just balances me out in that way. Like, he’s such an extroverted person and I enjoy solitude. I’m very individual. But he has so many friends and so many interests and stuff that I would have never gotten into if I hadn’t met him. Like, all of a sudden we’re going to comedy shows, going to more concerts. We’ve been to three concerts within the past couple of months. I would never go to live music before this, but I don’t know, it’s just things that I would not have had the motivation to do on my own that, along with him, he brings the motivation for certain things that I’m lacking.
Calvin
On the other side of that, I think that I am very manic at times. My group chat with my best friends from college is called #NoPrudence, because we are just constantly “yessing” each other and wanting to make plans. I think that I definitely bring that to Sam. And I’m constantly like, “okay, what’s next, what’s next, what’s next?” And he pulls me into the moment more, which I’ve really loved and appreciated. And he’s definitely made me appreciate more of just the calmness of sitting and watching TV and listening to music, dinner. And he has a very great sense of humor, which is important to me.
Sam
Yeah, the sense of humor is a big one for sure.
The Bul Bey
That sounded like a declaration: “which is important to me!”
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Yeah!
Calvin
Yeah. If he wasn’t funny, we would not be here, people!
Sam
I think we both just have this thing where we sort of …It’s not that we don’t take life seriously, but just we like to laugh at things that aren’t usually laughed at.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Yeah.
The Bul Bey
Thank you Cal and Sam for…
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Thank you so much!
The Bul Bey
…Answering from the heart.
Calvin
Thank you.
The Bul Bey
Love is truly in the air.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
It’s beautiful.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
Okay. I am stoked for next week’s episode, because we are talking to none other than the VP of Grindr! And he’s going to share some things that may surprise you, and did surprise me, about this popular gay dating app.
Patrick Lenahan
I think a lot of social media aims to be your social relationships, to completely intermediate them, and that is not what Grindr does. Grindr is there to accelerate your social relationships with people offline.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
You’re going to get this and more on next week’s episode. And please don’t forget to subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen.
The Bul Bey
I’m the Bul Bey.
Kirsten Michelle Cills
And I am Kirsten Michelle Cills. And we will see you all next week.
