[00:00:00.910] – Kirsten
Hello. Hello. Welcome, science fans, sex fans, relationship fans, fans of Bey, fans of the Eagles. Welcome to the So Curious! Podcast, presented by the Franklin Institute.
[00:00:16.920] – Bey
The Franklin Institute has a lot of fans. We’re your host. And I am The Bul Bey.
[00:00:21.210] – Kirsten
And I am Kirsten Michelle Cills. And Bey and I are so beyond stoked to bring you this season that talks all about the science behind love, sex, and relationships. Everything from what does your brain look like on love to why we obsess over our favorite television characters, to how science and tech are changing our relationships with each other.
[00:00:42.450] – Bey
And when we think about relationships, especially intimate relationships, it’s often the norm to think about the bond between two people. But today, we’re going to explore beyond those boundaries, looking at how people build other relationship structures. For this episode, we’re going to talk to Dr. Jorge Ferrer, a couples therapist who works with all different kinds of relationships.
[00:01:03.770] – Kirsten
And later, we are joined by Janet Hardy to discuss her work exploring modern perspectives on non-monogamous relationships.
[00:01:11.400] – Bey
We’ve got so much to talk about in this episod of so curious.
[00:01:14.900] – Kirsten
Oh, boy, do we all right. Bey, have you ever considered being a part of a non-monogamous relationship before?
[00:01:21.310] – Bey
I think in my imagination…I mean, practically speaking, it is intimidating and scary, and it’s a big mystery that I would just rather stay completely away from. I think I sit and imagine all kinds of stories and epic adventures and so on and so forth. So I think about it, but not in any kind of serious considering kind of a way. But there are people who literally wrap their lives and routines and identity around, like, hey, I’m being non-committal to one person, and… respect.
[00:01:53.240] – Kirsten
Yeah, absolutely. And I think when it comes to non-monogamous relationships, for me, I’ve considered non-monogamous relationships on the sexual side, but maybe not on the romantic side because there’s a lot of different ways to have relationships.
[00:02:06.450] – Bey
Right, right. Human interaction definitely exists on a spectrum.
[00:02:09.440] – Kirsten
[00:02:10.170] – Bey
I always found it interesting that we have like, what, “work husbands,” and people talk about, “this is my second mom,” and things like that. And no one bats an eyelash. But as soon as you start talking about my second wife, that’s a little different.
[00:02:25.630] – Kirsten
That’s very true. There’s a lot of stigma around that, which is what we’re going to get into, actually.
[00:02:30.560] – Bey
Right. And our first guest knows quite a bit about non-monogamy. He literally wrote the book on it. Doctor Jorge Ferrer.
[00:02:36.590] – Kirsten
Would you mind introducing yourself, telling us who you are, what you do for a living?
[00:02:40.520] – Jorge Ferrer
My name is Jorge Ferrer, and what I do for a living now is I have an international private practice, like seeing individuals and couples. Normally our niche is around how to achieve more fulfilling relationships. Also, we deal with things such as jealousy, infidelity also open relationships and the design of more satisfying relationships. For 20 years I was a professor at the California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco. I was chairing a department there. About a year and a half ago, I decided to go freelance, move away from academia and focus my work more on the direct transformation with people through counseling and also through workshops and webinars and things like this.
[00:03:22.720] – Kirsten
You wrote a book called “Love and Freedom: Transcending Monogamy and Polyamory.” What is this book about, and can you share a little bit of the findings that you’ve described in this book?
[00:03:33.090] – Jorge Ferrer
This book is about something that I experienced in my own life. For quite some time, I lived [for] long periods of both non-monogamy, polyamory and also monogamy. And at some point I started realizing that I didn’t fit in any of those boxes. I felt I had the freedom to be polyamorous or monogamous, depending on the part that life lies upon you, or the people that you would meet, or developmental moment, and so forth. So in this book, what I’m trying to do also to really kind of open up the spectrum of relational possibilities that are socially supported because we live in a very mononormative or monocentric culture and society that mostly support only monogamy institutionally, socially, morally, even religiously and so forth. So I’m trying to to open that up, but in a way that doesn’t create a new canon, like that polyamory is better than monogamy or any other style is better than any other style. But to really support them. You can be in any relationship style for the right or the wrong reasons.
[00:04:32.590] – Bey
And I feel like a lot of people believe monogamy has always been the standard. However, this isn’t the case. Can you give us a history lesson on monogamy?
[00:04:39.610] – Jorge Ferrer
What we know about monogamy in archaic times is speculative. There’s different hypotheses that serial monogamy was the case. There’s another hypothesis that we were a very poly, very promiscuous species. They’ve even suggested that there were different mating strategies depending on different geographical conditions, such as food availability, instincts of predators and so forth. Fast forward to the Neolithic times, and the emergence of agriculture. There’s quite a consensus that agriculture also came together with private property, food, proof of production, and also the interest and obsession later on of men to make sure that they were leaving their inheritance to their sons and daughters, not to the neighbor’s. So this also became the control of female sexuality in the west. And also monogamy was kind of starting to become social impulse. Of course this last took more social proportions, like in the Greek and Roman times as well. There was like a period, Greeks and Romans where they differentiate themselves from the barbarians through monogamy, even though of course they had concubines and sex slaves, but they were only married to one woman. And Christianity came into all this, and Greek-Roman monogamy shaped actually Christian views and relationship styles. There is many hypothesis about why all this was happening. I don’t think, we cannot get into them right here. But the last thing I will say is that in the 20th century we have moved from this kind of paradigm of lifelong monogamy to what is called serial monogamy. And there have been many factors causing the shift, like greater longevity, and in particular the invention of the pill, and the entry of women into the labor market.
[00:07:38.010] – Bey
Earlier you mentioned leaving the world academia. Did you find that the world of academia in terms of its systems and its terms, was it limiting in any way in your service to people and trying to help them explore monogamy and help them explore polyamory?
[00:07:52.980] – Jorge Ferrer
I was fortunate to teach a very liberal institution in the Bey Area of San Francisco. So I did not have that. I used to teach personal sexuality and sexuality. I had full freedom to invite people to speak about polyamory, monogamy and so forth. So I was very lucky enough in that regard. Coming to your question, there was a way in which when you are in academia or you’re writing for academics, you reach much less people that you could reach otherwise. Love and Freedom is a book I wrote for the dedicated public. But I was trying to reach much more
people than my prior academic books. And later on I just published a book in Spanish on the topic, completely popular with exercises and diagrams. So in a way it’s really about reaching more people because academics basically speak to ourselves and a few other academics.
[00:08:44.090] – Kirsten
Yeah, and that’s a very good point. Right. And so what do you see more of? Do you see more couples finding ways to amicably part or more couples trying to find ways to stay together and work through it.
[00:08:56.970] – Jorge Ferrer
In my experience, the people who come to speak to me at least I cannot generalize. They actually want to stay together, but they want to stay together with a sacrifice in the generative healing, transcendent powers, sexuality and sexual passion. They don’t have that. And therefore they have this dilemma. In a few cases, the counseling could lead towards separation or even some time apart. So they come back together. But very often I give them some protocols to recondol their sexuality. Sometimes we discuss the possibility of opening the relationship. That is what many what are called monogamous couples do these days. It’s called open monogamy or the new monogamy.
There’s an increasing number of couples, normally post patrol couples, that after a number of years they give each other free passes. For example, when they travel far, when they go to conventions, when they go to certain festivals like Barney Man or Boom or something like this, they give each other free passes to explore other Burning Man.
[00:10:01.370] – Bey
Wait a second. All this stuff is very funny, but you just drop Burning Man distinctly, specifically hilarious.
[00:10:09.720] – Kirsten
Yes, that makes a lot of sense. That does seem like a place you would take a free pass, right?
[00:10:14.010] – Bey
But talk to us about clients navigating jealousy in both romantic and sexual contexts. How do you help them move through that?
[00:10:20.790] – Jorge Ferrer
The first thing I try to do is to try to normalize it and to help them to understand that there are very archaic roots that we all carry inside fast from our evolutionary past. We all have those tendencies. It’s like living forests within us. And also to examine their biography. Because depending on your biography, your relationship with your parents, with your siblings, if there is some kind of trauma, then the opening of your consciousness to that kind of evolutionary tendencies could be like wider or narrower. But mostly I also give them some practice. In the book I described this practice I adopted from Buddhist practice sympathetic joy, empathic joy in which people really like to try to after deciding well being enjoy for oneself and for your partner, you do this practice like trying to cultivate genuine love and wellbeing for this third person that is triggering jealous in you. This may sound very contrary, intuitive, because our monocentric culture helps all of us. These people are our rivals, our enemies. But this practice, interestingly, was designed by Tibetan people to deal with the enemy. The Dalai Lama encouraged this practice to the Tibetan people went after the Chinese invasion to practice the Chinese.
[00:11:32.370] – Jorge Ferrer
And it does something it does something to the great system that it can help to metabolize those emotions in a different way, in a more special sense of self port. So I found it really effective. In the book is described what they are.
[00:11:44.220] – Bey
Some of your ideas around rethinking relationships? How can you help people really tackle these issues, these tough conversations and kind of reshape the concept of person to person relationships from all these perspectives I’ve.
[00:11:57.000] – Jorge Ferrer
Sharing a few with you is to help people to have a more constructive and compassionate approach to both jealousy and all these particular infidelities. Because infidelity in particular is like this cultural media reaction that people are damaged and there’s something wrong with them politically. In the States in particular, not in France, but in the States it’s something really bad. And there are many reasons why people cheat. For example, there’s a spectrum of motivations from the more selfish and mindless to more like need for Saturday discovery and regeneration and really like making changes in the relationship, both men and women. So I had them to have a different approach to infidelity, on the one hand. And of course, through all this new paradigm of moving beyond the monohem depolia binary, mapping different pathways, like different ways in which people can situate themselves in different circumstances and developmental moments in one or other relationship or beyond them, that is out of freedom. I’m always after relational freedom, the capability for people to be more autonomous and free in relational choices.
[00:13:08.630] – Kirsten
You should feel free in a relationship, right? No one should feel like you’re being tied down, quote unquote, in this moment.
[00:13:16.090] – Bey
I’m kind of conflicted in a way because I’m very dedicated in my relationship and I’m trying to chew on the thought as we have this conversation. Does dedication mean monogamy or does dedication means poly? And can those things go together? Can you still be in a dedicated relationship but have those poly elements be very, very active?
[00:13:36.470] – Kirsten
The sense of being dedicated to your partner is about wanting both of you to be your happiest best selves in your relationship, right? So if being dedicated means your partner says to you, this is something that I want to explore and it’s not something that’s going to make you happy, then absolutely right. But if it is, that’s dedication in itself.
[00:13:54.970] – Jorge Ferrer
One of the most sought and best definitions of love I’ve ever heard was like that love is supporting your partner wherever he needs to go for her growth. Even in that decision, that support takes her away from you. That’s true love. The rest is possession. I don’t know what love with possession or love with that freedom is. I’m not really sure, but I’m pretty sure it’s not love.
[00:14:18.430] – Kirsten
Yeah, that’s beautiful. You have a term. I am not going to try to pronounce it. I’m just going to spell it out. N-O-U-G-A-M-Y. You coined this term. Could you explain how to pronounce it, what it is?
[00:14:31.100] – Jorge Ferrer
Nogamy. So basically with this term, like, I named this array of different relational options beyond the monogamy and polyamorous binary because today you are either monogamous or you are polyamorous. Ten years ago, you are either male or female. And the transgender movement told us through the Relief experience that there is a variety of possibilities in between and beyond, sometimes with relational options. I’ll just give you a couple of examples. One is that developmentally, like, at certain points of my life, I may need to have, like, monochroma container in my relationships and maybe another time, like polyamorous, but it’s most important for my growth. So my monogamous polyamorous depending on when in my life or, for example, like our inner diversity. Many people are monogamous in their hearts and in their minds, the belief in monogamy. They feel monovamy, but in their guts and their sexual desire, they’re very poly. So are you monovamus or are you polyamorous, depending on what part of yourself you ask? The last example, of course, is like, today is like, how we live in a civil world and wait until Suttonburg brings his new version of the cyber world.
[00:15:43.510] – Jorge Ferrer
Right? So mega is all right. So anyway, there are people, like having Avatars and they have lights in that world. So some people could be very monotonous in this everyday life and be very poor in that world and have a lot of romantic connections and walks on the beach and dinners or vice versa. So there are many more examples mapped out in the book. So I called Novomi to the General Movement beyond the Monopoly Vineyard and also for those people who feel that they don’t identify themselves with either monovy or polyamory, but they feel the need for an identity, like transgender to people who identify with male or female. So for some of these people, I offer that term, but I don’t care about terms. I also said in the book that for some people maybe they don’t want to use any term whatsoever. And I really support all possibilities in so much as they decrease human suffering and help us, all of us, to live more harmonious relationships and more fulfilling lives. Know yourself and live the life that is more in agreement with you, changing these positions while being mindful of the impact of your actions on others.
[00:16:54.780] – Jorge Ferrer
Know yourself- Because relational freedom without social justice, for example, or with narcissists is not relational freedom, is something else.
[00:17:02.070] – Kirsten
Thank you so much for being here, Jorge. We really appreciate your time.
[00:17:05.660] – Bey
[00:17:07.610] – Kirsten
All right, Bey, how do you feel in terms of thinking of relationships on a spectrum?
[00:17:12.680] – Bey
It’s interesting that for the most part, nontraditional relationships, at least here, are still considered kind of shocking or risque.
[00:17:21.110] – Kirsten
Yeah, I think it depends on your circles. I definitely run in kind of a different circle, being a theater person and all of that, but, yeah, other circles in my life. It is totally like you said, risque stigmatized. I can see that. Yeah. You don’t really see, like, a throuple running for school board.
[00:17:41.090] – Bey
[00:17:42.020] – Kirsten
Or like, a politician with their multiple partners on stage.
[00:17:46.790] – Bey
Campaigning gives a new meaning to pretzel. I’m not the comedian, okay? I am excited for our next guest. Janet Hardy has written extensively about navigating different models of relationships, drawing on her own experiences and giving guidance to others. Welcome, Janet.
[00:18:07.920] – Kirsten
Could you just introduce yourself? Tell us what you do a little bit about yourself?
[00:18:11.660] – Janet Hardy
Sure. I’m Janet Hardy. I don’t care what pronouns you use for me. I float around between genders and I don’t expect people to keep up with that. I am the author of I’m working on book number 13 right now, but the one that most people know me for is a book called The Ethical Slut, which is a book about how to have multiple romantic, sexual, etc econnections in an honest and healthy way. And let’s see, I’m 67 and I live in Oregon with my equally gendered queer spouse and our pets. And that’s what I got.
[00:18:46.270] – Kirsten
Amazing. And that brings me right into our first question, the Ethical Slut. Incredible title. First of all, I just want to talk about it a little bit. Can you tell us what it mean to be an ethical Slut? And more importantly, do we all have an ethical slut inside of us?
[00:19:03.080] – Janet Hardy
I think we all have a lot of things inside of us. Whether we choose to let those out or not is an individual decision. To be an ethical slut means simply to be open to the possibility that sex and love and relationships are healthy unless otherwise unless someone is abusing them, and that it is possible to have as many of those as you have time and energy for as long as everybody involved knows what’s going on. And you keep the lines of communication open that none of those things should be shameful or harmful.
[00:19:40.070] – Bey
I love that. Could you talk about how you brought up shameful and harmful things? Could you talk about those specific dangers that come from being honest and open and clear?
[00:19:48.940] – Janet Hardy
Absolutely. We all grew up in a culture that is not real fond of sex unless it sells a product. It’s a little bit better for you guys’ generation than it is for mine, but we all grew up. It’s the water we swim in. And it is very difficult not to take on those burdens of shame in talking about or engaging in one’s own sex and relationships life. There’s any number of people out there who are going to make you wrong or evil or bad for having the kinds of sex you want with the kinds of people you like. So being an ethical slot is always a little bit swimming upstream against that. There are people who think you’re wrong for wanting what you want and doing what you do. So part of what we talk about in the book is how to protect yourself against those cultural oppressions.
[00:20:44.570] – Kirsten
We’ve been talking about polyamory and all of that and non monogamy. And I definitely do feel like that’s something that makes people extra uncomfortable because I have plenty of friends who are non monogamous and it makes monogamous people uncomfortable because it makes them feel like, oh, I hope my spouse doesn’t get any ideas. I hope this doesn’t rub off on them, which is basically a new age version of I don’t want my kid to be around a gay person or they’ll become gay or something. As if it’s contradictions.
[00:21:17.260] – Janet Hardy
Right. Yeah. When we go on the radio or whatever to talk about BDSM, it’s pretty easy for listeners to say, oh, that’s that weird stuff. Nobody does that. I don’t care about that. And they just sort of make it other and don’t worry about it. When we talk about relationships, pretty much everybody is in or has been in or wants to be in a relationship of some kind. And so you can’t just shove this aside as irrelevant. You have to think about it. Whether you decide that you want to do it or not. You still have to acknowledge it as a possibility and allow your mind to go to what it might be like to do that. And it may be that you go to what it might be like to do that and you go, oh shit, no, I don’t want to do that. But you still had to think about it. You can’t just blow it off. So I think that’s why this book strikes people a lot closer to the bone than our previous book.
[00:22:08.200] – Kirsten
Certain level of shooting the messenger, right?
[00:22:11.100] – Janet Hardy
[00:22:11.940] – Bey
Have you noticed any early personality behaviors that would tip you to say, this person is just going to be strictly monogamous or this person is going to be maybe warm up to poly lifestyles. Anything is holding their toy too tight and they’re like, no, this is mine.
[00:22:30.350] – Janet Hardy
Possessiveness is a problem, as is jealousy, but they can be worked with. They can be overcome. That should not be the obstacle. I would say someone with low tolerance for risk or new stimulation might have trouble being poly. People who want to do things that open up new venues for them and that raise the adrenaline and feel exciting, those people are more often drawn toward poly. Nonconformists are more often drawn toward poly. We often see people from other sexual minorities or other cultural minorities. We see a lot of people drifting into poly from things like Renfare and science fiction because once you’ve sort of become a misfit or recognize your own misfit hood, you have a lot less to lose by experimenting with Polly or BDSM. It’s not like you’re going to become a social pariah because you already are one. So you might not go find your people.
[00:23:30.330] – Kirsten
I shared it before on this show, but I have a degree in acting. I went to theater school in the heart of Philadelphia’s gayborhood and I know more poly people than most people know poly people because I love that thought process.
[00:23:44.980] – Janet Hardy
[00:23:45.420] – Kirsten
[00:23:45.960] – Janet Hardy
Now, that’s why we see more queers in poly too. When you’ve already said, okay, I’m not part of the mainstream. Then you start looking around and seeing, gee, who else isn’t part of the mainstream and what are they doing? And might I like to do it too? So it’s kind of a cliche in Polyland. How many of us are neopagans or science fiction people or so on? That’s changing back. When we published the first edition of Ethical Slot in 97, that was it. That was who we had. We had our misfits, we had our old hippies, we had our geeks. But these days when I speak to audiences on polytopics, they tend to be a much more homogeneous group. I’m seeing a lot more people of color, a lot more people who are more in the mainstream, young professionals, folks like that. The risks of being seen as poly are lower than they once were, particularly in major cities. And the awareness of poly as an option is also much better than it was 25 years ago. Been a long time. So, yeah, it’s a very different audience. Back in the day, I used to get calls from the producers of talk shows and there were more than one of these
saying, can you point me toward a poly family? That they’re not like old hippies and they’re not like techniques. I would say no. A, you just described my Rolodex, and B, yeah, that’s just doing it now these days, not so much these days. I could easily point them toward a poly family that is not either of those things.
[00:25:24.050] – Kirsten
It’s interesting how I see that a lot in many forms of looking for diversity and trying to platforms, trying to find people to exhibit as a token whatever person. And they always want it to be the most palatable, clean cut right, exactly that you can find. So I have no doubt. So can you tell us just from your first memoir, what is a girlfag? How do you know if you’re a girl fag?
A girl fag? You might be one because there’s a lot of us in inner circles, but yeah, I’m sure. I am actually a female bodied person who identifies with or as gay men and whose primary sexual attraction is to gay men.
[00:26:07.020] – Kirsten
And so I’m curious, how can this term girlfriend be used to help us understand or explore kind of the shifting meanings of what gender and sexual orientation are?
[00:26:17.210] – Janet Hardy
It’s a problematic term and we all know that. And there’s no English equivalent that is less problematic. I at one point suggested hags with benefits, but it didn’t catch. As we move away from binary gender as a model, a lot of our old ideas about sexual orientation tend to dissolve. I mean, what does it mean to say I’m attracted to men if you don’t have a definition of men? Does it mean you’re attracted to dicks? Does it mean you’re attracted to big shoulders? Does it mean you’re attracted to deep voices? What are you saying here and there’s? None of those things that you cannot get from someone who is not male identified. So I think along with that dissolution of binary gender, we’re also seeing a lot of people redefining their orientation. My usual advice to people who want to talk about issues like this is don’t get so dependent on nouns. Begin to talk about verbs. It doesn’t work as well for me to say, I am x for whatever value of x as it does to say, I like x. I don’t like x. That way it’s fluid. And you can change as the individual changes, as your circumstances change, as your libido changes. The trouble with labels, they’re extremely useful politically because they give you an umbrella to stand under, to say, look, there are all of these of us. We have some power. That’s great. They become less useful when they become descriptive. When you start hearing yourself say something like, I’m not going to do x because I am gay, then they’re holding you back. They’re not putting you forward in your life. So verbs, as a writer and as an activist, I’m a big fan of verbs. So the idea of orientation as restrictive, I don’t think it’s been very helpful to us.
[00:28:09.770] – Bey
Thank you for really giving us something to chew on and to think about. This was really personally enlightening. I definitely learned quite a bit.
[00:28:16.870] – Janet Hardy
[00:28:17.110] – Kirsten
Yes. You’re blowing my mind, Janet.
[00:28:19.430] – Speaker 4
It’s my job. It’s a blow job. That’s what I do.
[00:28:24.820] – Kirsten
[00:28:25.210] – Bey
You know what? Before we let you go, let me get a final thought, something that you want to share with the so curious podcast listeners.
[00:28:32.690] – Speaker 4
I am working on another memoir called Notes of an Aging Pervert that is going to look at my own aging process and everybody’s aging process through the eyes of a queer and kinky person. It’s coming out next fall from Unbound Editions and I am thrilled about it. I was finding that pretty much everything I tried to write was coming out about aging anyway, so I figured, screw it, I’m just going to write a book about it. So here it is.
[00:29:06.140] – Kirsten
Amazing. Thank you so much, Janet. I want to be you when I grow up. I am so impressed by you. This is incredible. Thank you so much for all you do.
[00:29:15.810] – Bey
So what’s the conversation around monogamy and non monogamous relationships? Like, in your circles and the spaces that you navigate?
[00:29:23.710] – Kirsten
Yeah. So innately, as people, we have multiple circles. Right. And they don’t always make a Venn diagram. Like, sometimes they are completely separate. And when I think about even my college friends having gone to theater school in literally the heart of the Gayborhood in Philadelphia, could not have been any gayer or more accepting with such a bubble, these conversations were completely normal. Do you.
And your partner or your partners want to come hang out tonight. It was just very whatever it is, it is. And then thinking of, like, friends from high school maybe, or something who maybe didn’t go off and go into the same circles that I did, it was a very different conversation coming from the little suburbs right outside of Philly.
[00:30:05.990] – Bey
Yeah. I’m hopeful that these conversations can continue to be opened up in different spaces. I will say that I am just not someone that entertains that in the personal relationships that I have. Like, I’m super monogamous and I’ve seen people try to explore that in my circles. But, yeah, it hasn’t stuck. But, yeah. I appreciate the fact that people are having the dialogue, at least like you said, some people are actually exploring it. We’re starting to understand that sexuality is a spectrum and behaviors and activities within that spectrum has their own spectrum. And we need to humanize it all and offer people the space to look at it safely, explore it safely, and not be chastised or ashamed or anything like that. But not over here.
[00:30:57.750] – Bey
Maybe I need some time. I don’t know. But I haven’t really delved or explored any of those things.
[00:31:04.580] – Kirsten
[00:31:05.210] – Bey
Thanks to Janet Hardy and Dr. Jorge Ferrer for being on this episode of So Curious.
[00:31:10.720] – Kirsten
Yeah, I love that we get to pick the minds of scientists on whatever we want. Next week, we are going to be speaking to an expert on sexually explicit- porn. That’s the technical name for porn. How does it affect our brains? When does it start to cause a problem?
[00:31:32.540] – Bey
So this and more on next week’s episode. Subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen and leave it to rating.
[00:31:38.270] – Kirsten
Yeah. If you like what you’re hearing, my name is Kirsten. If you do not like what I’m saying, my name is the bulBey.
[00:31:43.590] – Bey
[00:31:45.750] – Kirsten
And I am Kirsten Michelle Cills. Thank you all for hanging out with me.
[00:31:49.740] – Bey
And I am The Bul Bey.
[00:31:51.550] – Kirsten
We’ll see you next week.
[00:31:53.080] – Bey
So Curious is presented by the Franklin Institute. Special thanks to Franklin Institute producers Joy Montefusco and Dr. Jayatri Das. This podcast is produced by Radio Kismet. Radio Kismet is Philadelphia’s premier podcast production studio. Head of operations is Christopher Plant. The managing producer is Emily Charash. The producer is Liliana Green. The leading audio engineer and editor is Christian Cederlund. The editors are Lauren Deluca and Justin Berger. The science writer is Kira Villette. And the graphic designer is Emma Seager.